Author Topic: The result of the EU referendum:  (Read 256396 times)

jeremyp

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #350 on: February 22, 2016, 07:17:46 PM »
The highlighted bit is even more truer for the EU than for the UK
Do you realise that the EU is even less tightly coupled than a federation?

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Westminster are the puppets of the EU bidding
No it isn't.

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If we left the EU Westminster would change and focus once more on the UK and its true needs, including Scotland and the North because the party political machines at the centre of the Westminster bubble would change.

What evidence do you have for this? I could argue with equal credibility that the situation would get worse without the moderating influence of the EU.

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We would also need to deal with the banking system.

The EU has no positive or negative effect on the banking system in the UK that I can see. We didn't relax banking controls prior to the 2008 crash because the EU told us to. We did that off our own bat.
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Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #351 on: February 22, 2016, 07:20:09 PM »
No, the point of your last post was an assertion about the EU and the USSR, showing it was not even a glimpse on the horizon
I know what my post was about. What makes you think you know better than I do about my own posts!!! Such impertinence.

jeremyp

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #352 on: February 22, 2016, 07:24:09 PM »
We would be ruling ourselves by democratic means instead of being the slaves of the feudal lords of the EU.
That's laughable. We would be ruled as we have been ruled in living memory by a political class. Do you honestly think it would be any different if the EU wasn't there?

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What do you think Ever-Closer-Union means?

It means getting closer. Yes, there are elements in the EU that want a federation, but that doesn't mean a federation is going to happen or that, if it did, we would be worse off.

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But Jeremy I know that your paymasters are the EU

Many people in this country work for the EU either directly or indirectly. Many other people work in EU countries thanks to EU legislation. Many people in this country benefit from the influx of labour from the rest of the EU. If you want to leave, you are fucking all these people up the arse for your petty mirage of home rule.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #353 on: February 22, 2016, 07:24:53 PM »
I know what my post was about. What makes you think you know better than I do about my own posts!!! Such impertinence.

You can think it all you like. You haven't justified the  claim nor even been capable of suggesting why the alternative position is wrong other than being a bit Violet Elizabeth Bott. Are your tiny feet sore from all that stamping?

Nearly Sane

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #354 on: February 22, 2016, 07:27:16 PM »
The highlighted bit is even more truer for the EU than for the UK and it has come about in the UK because we are in the EU. That is, Westminster are the puppets of the EU bidding and they look to them for approval and guidance and take no account of the effects of these derivatives on the British people and their sovereignty.

If we left the EU Westminster would change and focus once more on the UK and its true needs, including Scotland and the North because the party political machines at the centre of the Westminster bubble would change. We would also need to deal with the banking system.

The EU isn't as yet even federalist, it's much less joined - compare to the US or Germany. The UK is much more than federalist, there is way less devolvement.

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #355 on: February 22, 2016, 07:29:31 PM »
Do you realise that the EU is even less tightly coupled than a federation?
Tell the Greek people that!!! You may be right but that's because it is more like a dictatorship, totally undemocratic.

What do you think Ever-Closer-Union is about?

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What evidence do you have for this? I could argue with equal credibility that the situation would get worse without the moderating influence of the EU.
How stupid Jeremy. Are you saying without the EU the British would resort back to being primitive? How rude to declare the Brits don't have the brains to run things, which they have done for thousands of years.

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The EU has no positive or negative effect on the banking system in the UK that I can see. We didn't relax banking controls prior to the 2008 crash because the EU told us to. We did that off our own bat.
You misread my post. Anyway the US effectively told us to do it.

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #356 on: February 22, 2016, 07:48:28 PM »
That's laughable. We would be ruled as we have been ruled in living memory by a political class. Do you honestly think it would be any different if the EU wasn't there?
Yes, because many people have wised up to the machinations of the political party. Of course what goes around comes around.

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It means getting closer. Yes, there are elements in the EU that want a federation, but that doesn't mean a federation is going to happen or that, if it did, we would be worse off.
Well I say look at history and the USSR and the result of highly concentrated power for a few.

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Many people in this country work for the EU either directly or indirectly. Many other people work in EU countries thanks to EU legislation. Many people in this country benefit from the influx of labour from the rest of the EU. If you want to leave, you are fucking all these people up the arse for your petty mirage of home rule.
Sounds as though I've hit a nerve!!!

You can't have two masters for you'll love one and hate the other. The smaller and closer the power base is the better for those who are governed by it because it will be within arms reach for them to change and follow it. The problem with the USSR and with the EU is the old adage that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. People don't work for other they work for themselves and their immediate clan.

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #357 on: February 22, 2016, 07:50:42 PM »
You can think it all you like. You haven't justified the  claim nor even been capable of suggesting why the alternative position is wrong other than being a bit Violet Elizabeth Bott. Are your tiny feet sore from all that stamping?
You made an assertion without a qualification. I just pointed out how it will all end.

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #358 on: February 22, 2016, 07:54:56 PM »
The EU isn't as yet even federalist, it's much less joined - compare to the US or Germany. The UK is much more than federalist, there is way less devolvement.
But its aims is to be more so. Even so, what ever stage it is at it is going the wrong way. And in fact it is more fascist than federalist look at the way Greece was treated.

At least the US vote in their law makers, corrupt as they are.

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #359 on: February 22, 2016, 07:57:18 PM »
People should realise that this referendum is a bit of a farce. If we vote to leave then what? Who does the negotiations. Who takes charge of the UK boat and sail her to better waters?

Gordon

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #360 on: February 22, 2016, 09:06:11 PM »
Moderator:

Posts that were originally in the 'Boris's third option' thread have been merged into this thread, which as a 'sticky' is the primary thread for discussion of the forthcoming EU referendum.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #361 on: February 22, 2016, 09:18:57 PM »
You made an assertion without a qualification. I just pointed out how it will all end.
Err nope, I posted a quote about an argument, you then made the assertion and comparison, you might want to actually engage then scweam and scweam, Violet

Gonnagle

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #362 on: February 22, 2016, 10:23:16 PM »
dear Jakswan,
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Want to put your money where your mouth is for a change?

No problem, there will be a poor election turn out, it will be that we stay in, Cameron will be strutting like a crow, Johnson will get a lovely place in the cabinet, just right to to look like he could be the next Prime Minister, oh dear he mean't well but he had the country at heart.

Yes I am a cynical bar steward.

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Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #363 on: February 23, 2016, 03:31:58 PM »
Err nope, I posted a quote about an argument,.....
You have proof of this?

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #364 on: February 23, 2016, 03:37:27 PM »
No problem, there will be a poor election turn out, it will be that we stay in, Cameron will be strutting like a crow, Johnson will get a lovely place in the cabinet, just right to to look like he could be the next Prime Minister, oh dear he mean't well but he had the country at heart.

Yes I am a cynical bar steward.

Gonnagle.
And what do you think the EU's response, long term that is, will be to our vote to stay in their clutches, after, of course, the EP has voted away the little worthless crap Cameron negotiated in the mammoth ordeal he went through?

SusanDoris

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #365 on: February 23, 2016, 04:32:05 PM »
My local MP is going to vote for out. I have sent an e-mail to local Association to find out when he will be holding meetings here and my neighbour and I will be there to heckle!
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wigginhall

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #366 on: February 23, 2016, 05:13:19 PM »
There seem to be estimates of about 140 Tory MPs supporting Leave, which is maybe more than commentators were thinking.   I suppose the Tory grassroots will be heavily for Leave, and quite a large number of Labour voters also, maybe a third.  The polls seem to be contradictory, one in the Mail had a large Remain majority. 
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L.A.

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #367 on: February 23, 2016, 06:48:04 PM »
dear Jakswan,
No problem, there will be a poor election turn out, it will be that we stay in, Cameron will be strutting like a crow, Johnson will get a lovely place in the cabinet, just right to to look like he could be the next Prime Minister, oh dear he mean't well but he had the country at heart.

Yes I am a cynical bar steward.

Gonnagle.
Everyone claims that there will be no animosity, and they will all be friends after the vote - but I would be surprised if Boris got a senior position in the event of an IN vote. My guess is that Cameron would make his exit before Boris recovers from his humiliation and obvious poor judgement.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #368 on: February 24, 2016, 08:31:41 AM »
Everyone claims that there will be no animosity, and they will all be friends after the vote - but I would be surprised if Boris got a senior position in the event of an IN vote. My guess is that Cameron would make his exit before Boris recovers from his humiliation and obvious poor judgement.
I don't think they'd necessarily be friends, but that wouldn't mean that Boris wouldn't be in poll position to win the Tory leadership in, say, 2019 if Cameron wins the referendum.

Don't forget that the rules require Tory MPs to select the candidates who are then put to the membership. A large block of MPs are in the 'leave' camp so will likely want one of their people on the ballot paper. And Tory members (not Tory voters) are overwhelmingly for 'leave', so it is quite likely that in a run off between a prominent 'stay' candidate (e.g. Osborne) and a prominent 'leave' candidate (e.g. Boris) that the latter would easily won the final membership vote.

So Boris positioning himself with 'leave' gives him two bites at being PM - if 'leave' win then surely Cameron resigns and he is a shoe-in. If 'Stay' wins he is still extremely well placed when Cameron goes before the next election.

I have no doubt this is the (correct) calculation Boris has made and the prime reason for his sudden conversion to all things eurosceptic.

jakswan

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #369 on: February 24, 2016, 09:25:02 AM »
No problem, there will be a poor election turn out, it will be that we stay in, Cameron will be strutting like a crow, Johnson will get a lovely place in the cabinet, just right to to look like he could be the next Prime Minister, oh dear he mean't well but he had the country at heart.

Notice you have backtracked on 'tiny minority', good man.

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Yes I am a cynical bar steward.

Come on now that is harsh, you are not cynical. :)
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jakswan

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #370 on: February 24, 2016, 09:28:31 AM »
I don't think they'd necessarily be friends, but that wouldn't mean that Boris wouldn't be in poll position to win the Tory leadership in, say, 2019 if Cameron wins the referendum.

Don't forget that the rules require Tory MPs to select the candidates who are then put to the membership. A large block of MPs are in the 'leave' camp so will likely want one of their people on the ballot paper. And Tory members (not Tory voters) are overwhelmingly for 'leave', so it is quite likely that in a run off between a prominent 'stay' candidate (e.g. Osborne) and a prominent 'leave' candidate (e.g. Boris) that the latter would easily won the final membership vote.

So Boris positioning himself with 'leave' gives him two bites at being PM - if 'leave' win then surely Cameron resigns and he is a shoe-in. If 'Stay' wins he is still extremely well placed when Cameron goes before the next election.

I have no doubt this is the (correct) calculation Boris has made and the prime reason for his sudden conversion to all things eurosceptic.

Yes good point, also if the vote is for stay and then the EU has a sustained Euro\Migrant\Other crisis its going to put Osborne on the defensive.
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jakswan

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #371 on: February 24, 2016, 10:01:41 AM »
To take independence for Scotland first, I for a long time was a federalist, ideally I still would be. However, we went through a period where we centralised UK powers reducing local democracy and then along came the Scottish parliament. After a number of years, it was clear that federalism wouldn't happen (the powerhouse of the North which is closest in recent times looks a piece of window dressing). Also the parliament lead us to not just a democratic deficit but a responsibility deficit where no one seemed to be really responsible. Along with the historic differences as regards law and education, it seemed to me the best thing on offer to address a problem apparent for a hundred years or more that was on offer was independence.

I think a large part of the issue is the ability for the SNP to blame Westminster which plays well to a Scottish electorate that a large part of hate the English.

The cure for that though is independence

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Note I thought that would also deal with a mis-shape in the democracy in the overall UK or at least kick off dealing with it. It was a pity that the unionist parties didn't pop a devo max option on the ballot paper as I think given it was policy for some and would have addressed the responsibility deficit pretty fully, it would have given them real status in Scotland and allowed them to fully expose the ' don't frighten the horses' approach of the SNP. The Vow with its vagueness and being all things to all unionists has just ended up with a further gap in democracy not having been voted for and no one really knowing what it meant.

The vow was more powers for Scotland; Scotland is getting more powers. You can argue is was vague but the Scottish voted for it.

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This may lead to something useful but to take an example you mentioned elsewhere, the income tax bid by Labour illustrates the mess. Fair enough it was an attempt to regain their anti austerity credentials but it was always doomed. That wouldn't be bad if it didn't show up the current problems. So the Scottish Govt can only adjust all tax bands the same, so it looked as if they would end,up taxing the lower rate tax payers and regressively at that. Instead of having planned to deal with something that had to happen, they then ran round talking about a rebate system that appeared to cost more to implement than they were going to raise. As the further powers crystallise it may be that this sort of issue can be avoided, one hopes so.

Following the Smith Commission won't the Scottish Govt. get 'The ability to set Income Tax rates and bands' (from wiki).


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The case for staying in the EU to me seems to be that the democratic deficit is one that could be addressed internally, it is currently much more federated than the UK ever could be. Also many of the decisions taken, such as the refugee crisis which is likely to get worse in my opinion, but also questions of what defense means, seem to me to need to be taken in a large block. Larger than the UK and in one that because of how it is currently constituted has the means to develop forward.

A common defence policy is unworkable isn't it. I would expect a government to be able to control immigration, the electorate voted in Cameron on his 'no ifs or buts' promise but he is unable to deliver.

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I worry that the UK would become essentially a reaction to the loss of its central role that still haunts the rhetoric of many leavers. That along with a strong hint of less support for workers and deregulation that will only help the rich. And yes there is a problem with the sign up to TTIP with staying in the EU, I just don't see that following with less protection in an out UK.

If Corbyn got elected then this would solve that issue. I'm sorry but if you are going to address the democratic deficit issue what you see as an issue is irrelevant, its what the electorate wants. So for example the electorate might not want TTIP they can't vote for anyone that can stop it whilst in the EU.

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One thing is I'm not wedded to either side emotionally here, nor do I think it is clear that there is a right side. It's an accumulation of guesses and having to come down on one side eventually. One thing that I suspect was a mistake from Cameron was the timing. It means for us in Scotland, Wales and NI we will follow parliamentary elections with another campaign. I think the vote may be down simply because of boredom. Given the current polling that is bad news for stay in the EU.

It may be a bad judgement call but if the late Summer news is filled with stories of another migrant crisis or Germans rioting in protest of immigration or the Euro collapsing then Cameron might have timed it just right.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #372 on: February 24, 2016, 10:14:32 AM »
Following the Smith Commission won't the Scottish Govt. get 'The ability to set Income Tax rates and bands' (from wiki).
Indeed they will, and not only will they have the ability to (as they have had the ability to vary tax since the Scottish Parliament was set up) but will have to.

Previously a Scottish Parliament could simply go along with the status quo of UK tax levels and duck the tough decisions on tax. They can't do that now, as from April the basic rate of tax in Scotland will be just 10% - if they want the revenue to spend on the things they want they will now have to raise tax above that level and will have to justify to the electorate why the rate they set is correct, how that money is being spent and why.

That's a big change.

Until now the Scottish Parliament got to do all the nice stuff (spending money) but none of the tough stuff (raising revenue through taxation) - so it is easy to take the credit for spending when you want and blame Westminster if aren't spending on the basis that they didn't give us enough pocket money. All that should change now, and quite rightly - for democracy really to work government needs to be responsible both for raising revenue through taxation and also for spending the money raised.

L.A.

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #373 on: February 24, 2016, 10:48:27 AM »
I don't think they'd necessarily be friends, but that wouldn't mean that Boris wouldn't be in poll position to win the Tory leadership in, say, 2019 if Cameron wins the referendum.

Don't forget that the rules require Tory MPs to select the candidates who are then put to the membership. A large block of MPs are in the 'leave' camp so will likely want one of their people on the ballot paper. And Tory members (not Tory voters) are overwhelmingly for 'leave', so it is quite likely that in a run off between a prominent 'stay' candidate (e.g. Osborne) and a prominent 'leave' candidate (e.g. Boris) that the latter would easily won the final membership vote.

So Boris positioning himself with 'leave' gives him two bites at being PM - if 'leave' win then surely Cameron resigns and he is a shoe-in. If 'Stay' wins he is still extremely well placed when Cameron goes before the next election.

I have no doubt this is the (correct) calculation Boris has made and the prime reason for his sudden conversion to all things eurosceptic.

In the event of an IN vote, Boris would certainly be persona non grata in Downing Street and Cameron would still be in charge. He wouldn't be overtly punished, but senior figures would constantly be pointing out how poor his judgement had been. It's possible that a majority of the parliamentary party might have supported the OUT campaign, but they will want the new leader to be a credible figure and Boris would have had his credibility shattered.

In the event of an OUT vote, Boris might well make it.
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Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #374 on: February 24, 2016, 04:46:14 PM »
Indeed they will, and not only will they have the ability to (as they have had the ability to vary tax since the Scottish Parliament was set up) but will have to.

Previously a Scottish Parliament could simply go along with the status quo of UK tax levels and duck the tough decisions on tax. They can't do that now, as from April the basic rate of tax in Scotland will be just 10% - if they want the revenue to spend on the things they want they will now have to raise tax above that level and will have to justify to the electorate why the rate they set is correct, how that money is being spent and why.

That's a big change.

Until now the Scottish Parliament got to do all the nice stuff (spending money) but none of the tough stuff (raising revenue through taxation) - so it is easy to take the credit for spending when you want and blame Westminster if aren't spending on the basis that they didn't give us enough pocket money. All that should change now, and quite rightly - for democracy really to work government needs to be responsible both for raising revenue through taxation and also for spending the money raised.
If your last point is true then there will be an even bigger incentive to become independent, which will make Cameron look a bit of a joke for campaigning to hold the Union together in the referendum but then giving Scotland all the fundamental powers to allow them to be independent - unless the government hasn't quite done that(?).