The result of the EU referendum:

[jeremyp]

It is very unlikely that the Euro will survive and that will be that.

The Euro has just survived a major crisis. I think it will be around long after we are all dead.

We have never had any influence, the dice have always been loaded from the very start. That is why we have huge splits in the Tory party because many know that the EU train is on a single line track that is going to hell.

Maggy said it very curtly, "No!, No!, NO!!"

Instead of all this emotive nonsense, how about telling us how we will be better outside the EU. I want concrete benefits, not fear mongering.

[L.A.]

What is nebulous about self-rule and sovereignty?

I would say that that is another illusion. We never will have the kind of sovereignty that the the bexit crew fantasise about. The days when Britannia ruled the waves and the rest of the world did as they were told have long gone.

In short we will always be constrained by international agreements but we will have more influence if we are part of a powerful block.

[Jack Knave]

Oh yes it does - aren't you aware that a significant amount of funding from the EU is distributed down to local/regional level because the EU believes in subsidiarity and therefore distributes funding to the correct levels for those functions.

There's just been a report out by the EU audit lot that billions have been wasted on these local projects because it was thrown at schemes which were flawed and inappropriate for the regions needs. In the past these grants have been used by local officials and criminals to nick billions. There's no due diligence on them or accountability for these failures. In fact the bureaucrats in Brussels are legally above the law and can't be brought to account for anything which is why anything goes with them; usually down the drain.

How about taking the plank from your own eye. So everyone must have a direct say on every other constitution, but no-one can have a direct say on the UK constitution. Isn't that rank double standards.

I think you need to learn how to read with that red mist in front of you. I said no one has had a say on their constitution, especially ones created or evolved centuries ago. But I also said that if people were bothered by the flaws that they may have there would have been an uprising by now, or outcry. And of course they would have the right to get things changed.

And you complained about the EU constitution being opaque - well it is as clear as day compared to the murky, unclear UK 'unwritten' constitution. So if you are really concerned about the clarity of constitutions and that they have democratic legitimacy, sure the first place to look is the UK, to demand that government set out a clear written constitution and then gain direct democratic approval via a referendum.

It is not clear. The fact that it is written down does not make it clear to the man and woman in the street. It is technically complex, and purposively so to keep it at arms length from the people, but also it runs into millions of pages. The American constitution is just a handful or so. Even so, the little that we do know makes it enough for me to want to leave and let the whole rotten pile fester away.

But actually, of course, you aren't really interested in constitutional issues, you are really just another 'little englander'-type petty nationalist who cannot stand the EU.

There you go again showing your true colours!!!

[L.A.]

It is very unlikely that the Euro will survive and that will be that.

We have never had any influence, the dice have always been loaded from the very start. That is why we have huge splits in the Tory party because many know that the EU train is on a single line track that is going to hell.

Maggy said it very curtly, "No!, No!, NO!!"

I think the EURO probably will survive in some form or other though some countries might have to give it up as a national currency.

Maggie was very keen on the single market because she saw it was good for Britain - we would be mad to throw that away.

[Jack Knave]

I find it interesting that the Brexiters haven't named any clear benefits of leaving yet but they are appealing to nebulous concepts of self rule and sovereignty.

And the Remainers just play the fear card game!!!

[Jack Knave]

It seems to me that an awful lot of the 'advantages' of bexit are illusory. If we were really lucky (and pragmatic) we might well be able to negotiate a deal that would still give us access to the EU market, but that deal would likely to have exactly the same advantages and disadvantages as we have at present. Nothing would have changed - except that we would then be excluded from the decision making processes of Europe.

That's a lie.

[L.A.]

That's a lie.

Thank you for that well though out in depth analysis of my posting

[ProfessorDavey]

That's a lie.

Really!

Question for you JK - if there is Brexit, do you want to remain a member of EEA/EFTA?

If so do you understand the consequences in terms of having to comply with EU regulations. If not do you understand the consequences in terms of lack of access to European markets and the negative effect on our economy.

[Jack Knave]

The Euro has just survived a major crisis. I think it will be around long after we are all dead.

It has not survived anything. The can has been kicked down the road which is getting shorter and shorter.

Instead of all this emotive nonsense, how about telling us how we will be better outside the EU. I want concrete benefits, not fear mongering.

We will be able to make our own laws that suit us.

Politics in the UK will change as the politicians are forced to look towards the UK and not Brussels, thereby, being truly accountable to those who vote them in.

We can create a points system to control those coming in and going out of the UK.

We will be able to do trade deals with others around the world, deals that suit us not Germany and France. Because of the specificity of these deals they will be easier to fit to our needs than these gross compromises we get from Brussels.

We will lose tonnes of red tape, and just other general crap.

We will get democracy back which is never an item for sale.

And we will show the rest of the EU members that they too can free themselves from that monster the EU, thereby, having countries to deal with not bureaucratic nightmares.

We will kiss TTIP goodbye, something no one wants or needs except the powerful elites and political classes.

Am sure Farage and UKIP could come up with loads more reasons.

[L.A.]

We will be able to make our own laws that suit us.

That's another illusion.

The majority of the (much hated) Euro-laws that have to pass through our parliament are just boring product standards - and we will still have to comply to those standards, one way or another, as long as we want to sell to Europe.

We can't just force the rest of the world to start using 13amp plugs 

[Jack Knave]

I would say that that is another illusion. We never will have the kind of sovereignty that the the bexit crew fantasise about. The days when Britannia ruled the waves and the rest of the world did as they were told have long gone.

Even UKIP are not calling for that. Instead they are looking to the future.

[L.A.]

Even UKIP are not calling for that. Instead they are looking to the future.

I don't think UKIP can see any further than Farage's ego.

[Jack Knave]

I think the EURO probably will survive in some form or other though some countries might have to give it up as a national currency.

Maggie was very keen on the single market because she saw it was good for Britain - we would be mad to throw that away.

But the EURO won't survive as part of the wet dream of Brussels, the Ever-Closer-Union. It will just be one more run-of-the-mill currencies which is just about what it is now.

Depends on what you mean by the single market. It has changed from what she knew in her day.

[ProfessorDavey]

We will be able to make our own laws that suit us.

No you won't unless you want restrictions on the ability to trade with the rest of Europe who are in then EU or the EEA. If you want to trade without restrictions you will have to abide by the principles and rules of the EEA, which include the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital.

And the UK won't be able to make up its own laws 'to suit us' unless it also decides to withdraw from NATO, the UN, OECD etc etc as membership of those groups also comes with obligations that prevents member states doing what the hell they like.

[Jack Knave]

Thank you for that well though out in depth analysis of my posting

My pleasure mate.  ........ You want a reply?

Oh OK. But I'm tied of repeating myself on this.

Firstly, we have never been part of the decision making process in the sense we have got things changed. There is only one plan, no ifs no buts, either that or lump it (Greece got the full 9 yards of that boot in your face attitude from Brussels). All our representatives in Brussels are paid by Brussels and get impunity from all crimes and a fat pension and tax at 15%. They know who there master is.

The deal would not be the same as we would not be in the single market, which is not a market but a political project with rules to match. We would cut our own trade deal with the EU to suit ourselves and needs.

[Gonnagle]

Dearest me,

28 countries, 517 MEP's, UKIP have 24 MEP's Labour have 20, Tories have 19, all those politicians out of work, is that a good reason to vote out

Gonnagle.

[Jack Knave]

Really!

Really!!!

Question for you JK - if there is Brexit, do you want to remain a member of EEA/EFTA?

NO.

If so do you understand the consequences in terms of having to comply with EU regulations. If not do you understand the consequences in terms of lack of access to European markets and the negative effect on our economy.

Do you understand that anyone who trades with the EU have to keep to comply with the rules? We would be outside the EU as is Canada, say.

What makes you think we would not have access to the EU market?

[ProfessorDavey]

We would cut our own trade deal with the EU to suit ourselves and needs.

No you wouldn't - given that the EU is the largest block on the planet by GDP ($18.5 million million) and the UK represents just 15% of that GDP it would of courses be the other way around.

The UK would be required to abide by trade rules set by the EU not the other way around, as is currently the case for other countries that are part of the EEA but not the EU.

The Norwegians call it fax democracy - they have no say in the EU rules but wait for them to be faxed to Norway where they are obliged to implement them as a requirement for free trade with the rest of the EEA.

[L.A.]

But the EURO won't survive as part of the wet dream of Brussels, the Ever-Closer-Union. It will just be one more run-of-the-mill currencies which is just about what it is now.

I think that is probably a 'good thing'.

Depends on what you mean by the single market. It has changed from what she knew in her day.

The worlds largest single market is still our 'home market'.

[Jack Knave]

That's another illusion.

The majority of the (much hated) Euro-laws that have to pass through our parliament are just boring product standards - and we will still have to comply to those standards, one way or another, as long as we want to sell to Europe.

We can't just force the rest of the world to start using 13amp plugs 

That's a half truth.

Anyone selling to the EU has to abide by the EU rules on product quality.

We, as members though, have to make everything to EU standards whether it is for the EU market or not and that costs money, and dealing with unnecessary red tape. Therefore, better out and cheaper out.

[Jack Knave]

I don't think UKIP can see any further than Farage's ego.

That plainly shows that you can't think. Try doing some homework and acquire some facts!!!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Bloody Hell,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6818119/MEP-pay-rise-takes-salary-to-86000.html

86 grand a year and free haircuts, F*** me.

British MEPs claim to be embarrassed at taking the extra money at a time when their voters are feeling the pinch but argue that the matter is out of their hands.

Embarrassed, hang your heads in shame

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

That's a half truth.

Anyone selling to the EU has to abide by the EU rules on product quality.

We, as members though, have to make everything to EU standards whether it is for the EU market or not and that costs money, and dealing with unnecessary red tape. Therefore, better out and cheaper out.

If we quit, we would still have to comply to EU standards for EU exports. It would be very expensive for manufacturers to produce separate products for home and EU markets. It would be much easier and cheaper just to comply to EU standards for everything (and I would be very surprised if we didn't)

We would still be bound by EU red-tape but wouldn't be able to influence the rules.

[Jack Knave]

No you won't unless you want restrictions on the ability to trade with the rest of Europe who are in then EU or the EEA. If you want to trade without restrictions you will have to abide by the principles and rules of the EEA, which include the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital.

And the UK won't be able to make up its own laws 'to suit us' unless it also decides to withdraw from NATO, the UN, OECD etc etc as membership of those groups also comes with obligations that prevents member states doing what the hell they like.

That comment was in reference to how the EU imposes their laws on us. As I have said we will be outside the single market like Canada, Australia etc., who by the way trades with the EU and are not subject to free movement and all that.

[Gonnagle]

Dearest Mater,

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

So basically we tell Johnny Foreigner to piss off and then they set the terms of just how they will piss off, nice.

Gonnagle.