The result of the EU referendum:

[Jack Knave]

No you wouldn't - given that the EU is the largest block on the planet by GDP ($18.5 million million) and the UK represents just 15% of that GDP it would of courses be the other way around.

The UK would be required to abide by trade rules set by the EU not the other way around, as is currently the case for other countries that are part of the EEA but not the EU.

The Norwegians call it fax democracy - they have no say in the EU rules but wait for them to be faxed to Norway where they are obliged to implement them as a requirement for free trade with the rest of the EEA.

We buy more off the EU than they do off us. They are falling to bits and they need our trade. We also have the rest of the world to trade with, so if need be we'll buy our goods elsewhere, but I'm sure BMW will pressure the EU to give us a nice deal. 

We will NOT be in any of the EU groups if the negotiations are done properly, say by Farage and UKIP.

[Jack Knave]

The worlds largest single market is still our 'home market'.

What do you actually mean by that statement?

[Jack Knave]

If we quit, we would still have to comply to EU standards for EU exports. It would be very expensive for manufacturers to produce separate products for home and EU markets. It would be much easier and cheaper just to comply to EU standards for everything (and I would be very surprised if we didn't)

We would still be bound by EU red-tape but wouldn't be able to influence the rules.

I've explained all that. Some manufacturers don't, or hardly, sell to the EU and yet waste time and money bringing their products up to EU standards.

I have already said we don't influence anything now!!! So that won't change.

[Jack Knave]

Dearest Mater,

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

So basically we tell Johnny Foreigner to piss off and then they set the terms of just how they will piss off, nice.

Gonnagle.

Doesn't quite work out like that. There's a 2 year limit on it. If nothing is agreed then all treaties etc. cease to apply to us.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jack,

As I think on this it reminds me of the Scottish Referendum, divorce and then we decide who gets the kids at the weekend, the out mob will need to get their act in gear, tell us before we divorce who gets the kids.

For instance, will we get the same deal that Norway and Switzerland seem to enjoy, do we want that same deal?

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

For instance, will we get the same deal that Norway and Switzerland seem to enjoy, do we want that same deal?

Norway and Switzerland have to abide by pretty well all of the rules of the EU (certainly the ones the UKIPers get so agitated by in order to trade freely, yet of course have no say in those rules at all.

Not sure about Switzerland but Norway seems to pay very substantially into the EU budget, yet gets nothing directly out of it (except the ability to trade freely).

[jeremyp]

And the Remainers just play the fear card game!!!

Still no clear benefits from you then.

[jeremyp]

It has not survived anything. The can has been kicked down the road which is getting shorter and shorter.
We will be able to make our own laws that suit us.

The Euro is still with us. It has survived.

Politics in the UK will change as the politicians are forced to look towards the UK and not Brussels, thereby, being truly accountable to those who vote them in.

That's a rather vague thing to say. Give me specific benefits. Why will our lives (yours and mine) be better. Will the government stop squeezing the NHS? will they carry on with fracking?

We can create a points system to control those coming in and going out of the UK.

Ah, you want a little England. I don't see that as a benefit.

We will be able to do trade deals with others around the world, deals that suit us not Germany and France. Because of the specificity of these deals they will be easier to fit to our needs than these gross compromises we get from Brussels.

What? Little England will be able to tell the USA, China and the EU how we want our trade to run? We no longer have an empire, don't you know.

We will lose tonnes of red tape, and just other general crap.

Be specific. What bureaucratic regulations will go away?

We will get democracy back which is never an item for sale.

This island with its electoral system that saw the SNP get many more seats than UKIP on a lower proportion of the vote and that has a totally unelected second chamber?  What do you think "democracy" actually means?

And we will show the rest of the EU members that they too can free themselves from that monster the EU, thereby, having countries to deal with not bureaucratic nightmares.

Again, be specific. What bureaucratic nightmares.

We will kiss TTIP goodbye, something no one wants or needs except the powerful elites and political classes.

You are deluding yourself. If we can get the Americans to listen to us for 10 minutes we might get a trade agreement with them, but the terms will be just as bad as TTIP

Am sure Farage and UKIP could come up with loads more reasons.

That bunch of racist, xenophobic losers? Blimey.

[jeremyp]

We, as members though, have to make everything to EU standards whether it is for the EU market or not and that costs money, and dealing with unnecessary red tape. Therefore, better out and cheaper out.

So the benefit of leaving the EU is that we can make products to a lower standard, is it? That sounds like it benefits nobody except the manufacturers. Except, of corse, the manufacturers will still have to make a higher standard version of their products to export to the EU.

[ProfessorDavey]

We can create a points system to control those coming in and going out of the UK.

We already have one for people coming from outside the EU.

If we try to introduce on for people from the EU we can kiss goodbye to any free trade deal, as it would be incompatible with being part of the EEA or EFTA. So points for immigration means tariffs for trade.

[L.A.]

What do you actually mean by that statement?

With virtually any kind of business there are economies of scale. Basically that means the more 'units' you sell the more efficiently you can operate and the greater profit you can make  and the more you can expand.

However, the size of the UK market is not very big in world terms, so the potential for our companies would be limited with such a small 'home market', but when we got unrestricted access to the EU market all that changed. Our home market is currently the whole EU.

. . . and some bunch of clowns want to ditch all that!

[jakswan]

If we want to trade with the EU or the USA, we'll have to abide by the rules they set. At least as a member of the EU our government gets some influence over the rules.

If we leave our government will have total influence over the rules.

Yes, because it's always good to have people in your country starving to death. Oh, wait.

[/quote]

Straw man.

And the UK courts are better than the European ones because....?

The are accountable to the UK parliament. Why do you think the EU courts are better?

[jakswan]

Because for the majority of us, self rule is simply about a different set of people we don't know screwing us over. Is the British government really any better than the EU one? Would it be better than an English/Scottish/Welsh/NI one? I don't know.

The British government is accountable to the British electorate, lets get rid of democracy altogether you seem to have more faith in a totalitarian bureaucracy.   

I do know that one of the perceived advantages of leaving the EU is that we will be able to ditch the the EU human rights laws and employment laws because we'll obviously all be better off with fewer human rights and less protection from exploitative employers. Oh, wait, no.

Did I argue for less human rights, oh wait no, another straw man.

Are there any real benefits from leaving the EU? How will it make my life better, or your life better?

It will fix the democratic deficit, we will be better able to elect governments that can be held to account.

Might help fix the housing crisis with less migration, we might be better able to stop large corporates evade tax.

[ProfessorDavey]

If we leave our government will have total influence over the rules.

No we won't, quite the reverse. As we will eb a much smaller player our ability to impose our view on others in trade negotiations will be significantly diminished. So if we want to trade most likely we will have to do so according to the rule imposed on us by other much larger economic blocks, such as the EU, the USA and China.

If we want free trade with the EU, or the wider EEA we will be obliged to align with their rules, not ours.

[jeremyp]

If we leave our government will have total influence over the rules.

Have you not read the rest of this thread? We will still have to abide by EU and US rules if we want to trade with them, but without any influence whatsoever.

Straw man.

If they don't get benefits, migrants that are out of work will starve to death, or turn to crime.

The are accountable to the UK parliament.

 Why do you think the EU courts are better?

Who said they are better? I was just challenging the assertion that the UK courts are somehow the Nirvana of the justice system. The European courts provide an extra level of checks and balances.

[jeremyp]

The British government is accountable to the British electorate, lets get rid of democracy altogether you seem to have more faith in a totalitarian bureaucracy.   

What percentage of British voters voted for the current government?

What percentage of British voters voted for the 50 SNP MPs?

What percentage of British voters voted for the one UKIP MP?

What percentage of British voters voted for anybody in our second chamber?

Did I argue for less human rights, oh wait no, another straw man.

Did I say you did argue for less human rights? I put it up as an alleged benefit since you brexiters are so reticent to do it yourself.

Might help fix the housing crisis with less migration, we might be better able to stop large corporates evade tax.

A lot of mights there. Still nothing solid.

Let's be honest, if Britain goes it alone and it makes the place better, we will have more migrants, not fewer. Of course, if Brexit causes an economic slump, that will relieve the migration crisis, somewhat.

By the way, if large corporations are evading tax, that is illegal. Which large corporations do you claim are breaking the law and how will Brexit make it easier to prosecute them?

[jakswan]

No we won't, quite the reverse. As we will eb a much smaller player our ability to impose our view on others in trade negotiations will be significantly diminished. So if we want to trade most likely we will have to do so according to the rule imposed on us by other much larger economic blocks, such as the EU, the USA and China.

If we want free trade with the EU, or the wider EEA we will be obliged to align with their rules, not ours.

It will be a negotiation either way.

[jakswan]

Have you not read the rest of this thread? We will still have to abide by EU and US rules if we want to trade with them, but without any influence whatsoever.

So lets join the US then?

Trade deals are negotiated, being in the EU is where rules are imposed.

If they don't get benefits, migrants that are out of work will starve to death, or turn to crime.

Check back, I was talking about in work benefits.

Who said they are better? I was just challenging the assertion that the UK courts are somehow the Nirvana of the justice system. The European courts provide an extra level of checks and balances.

Never claimed they were a nirvana of any justice system, another straw man.

[jakswan]

What percentage of British voters voted for the current government?

What percentage of British voters voted for the 50 SNP MPs?

What percentage of British voters voted for the one UKIP MP?

What percentage of British voters voted for anybody in our second chamber?

So a totalitarian EU bureaucracy is better than British democracy?

Did I say you did argue for less human rights? I put it up as an alleged benefit since you brexiters are so reticent to do it yourself.

we'll obviously all be better off with fewer human rights and less protection from exploitative employers. Oh, wait, no.

A lot of mights there. Still nothing solid.

There is nothing but mights on either side of the debate. Like it or not the Conservatives were elected on a manifesto (some policies Labour shared) and they are unable to deliver on many issues because we are in the EU.

Let's be honest, if Britain goes it alone and it makes the place better, we will have more migrants, not fewer. Of course, if Brexit causes an economic slump, that will relieve the migration crisis, somewhat.

Lets be honest and not make things up like you just did.

By the way, if large corporations are evading tax, that is illegal. Which large corporations do you claim are breaking the law and how will Brexit make it easier to prosecute them?

Avoidance then, Google prime example. Even John McDonnell wants to impose a sales tax on Google to fix the problem how exactly will that work when the sales are in Ireland?

[jeremyp]

So lets join the US then?

Trade deals are negotiated, being in the EU is where rules are imposed.

And there would be rules that apply to our trade with them.

Check back, I was talking about in work benefits.

Apologies. I think the point still stands. If a migrant is not being paid enough by his or her job to meet th cost of living in the UK, why do they deserve benefits less than anybody else?

Never claimed they were a nirvana of any justice system, another straw man.

You made the unsubstantiated claim that our courts are better than the European courts. I don't see any evidence of that.

[jeremyp]

So a totalitarian EU bureaucracy is better than British democracy?

No it wouldn't be, if there was a democracy in Britain.

There is nothing but mights on either side of the debate. Like it or not the Conservatives were elected on a manifesto (some policies Labour shared) and they are unable to deliver on many issues because we are in the EU.

Would you like to tell me which Conservative policies cannot be delivered because we are in the EU.

Avoidance then, Google prime example. Even John McDonnell wants to impose a sales tax on Google to fix the problem how exactly will that work when the sales are in Ireland?

How will us not being in the EU stop Google from minimising its tax bill in the way it does?

For reference, until last year, Starbucks made no profit in the UK. The main reason for this is that Starbucks UK bought all of its beans from Starbucks in Switzerland at a huge markup. This trick would still be available to Starbucks if we were not in the EU.

These kinds of tricks will always be possible while different countries have different corporate tax rates. Google is in the RoI because of its very low corporate tax regime, as is Apple. The only way to stop this from happening is for countries to get together in a large Bloc and create rules to stop it. However, you are arguing for us to leave just such a large bloc.

[ProfessorDavey]

Like it or not the Conservatives were elected on a manifesto (some policies Labour shared) and they are unable to deliver on many issues because we are in the EU.

Yes ... and.

My local council was elected on a manifesto and they are unable to deliver on many of those issues because of the Westminster government. Likewise regional assemblies and parliaments in Scotland, Wales and London. There are plenty of things a westminster government cannot do because it is a member of NATO, and of the UN, and of the OECD etc etc. That's life - if you want to be part of a club and benefit from that membership (as the UK does by being part of the UN, NATO, EU, OECD etc) then there are some restrictions on your freedom to act.

And actually many of those policies that you claim they are unable to deliver because of the EU are in fact deliverable (e.g. restrictions on benefits) but Westminster pretends that the EU is preventing them. Others would still be undeliverable even if we were outside the EU unless we are prepared to accept swinging restrictions on trade with most of the rest of europe (including some countries that aren't even in the EU).

[jakswan]

And there would be rules that apply to our trade with them.

Yes to be negotiated.

Apologies. I think the point still stands. If a migrant is not being paid enough by his or her job to meet th cost of living in the UK, why do they deserve benefits less than anybody else?

They are not UK citizens.

You made the unsubstantiated claim that our courts are better than the European courts. I don't see any evidence of that.

No I said our courts are accountable to our parliament who are accountable to the electorate. 

[jakswan]

No it wouldn't be, if there was a democracy in Britain.

So because you are not a fan of the in your eyes non-democratic UK you prefer a non-democratic bureaucracy?

Would you like to tell me which Conservative policies cannot be delivered because we are in the EU.

In work benefits for migrants, not paying child benefit to migrants.

How will us not being in the EU stop Google from minimising its tax bill in the way it does?

If would allow the UK government to pass a law that prevented sales being issued from a foreign country when the activity relating to that sale is done in the UK.

For reference, until last year, Starbucks made no profit in the UK. The main reason for this is that Starbucks UK bought all of its beans from Starbucks in Switzerland at a huge markup. This trick would still be available to Starbucks if we were not in the EU.

These kinds of tricks will always be possible while different countries have different corporate tax rates. Google is in the RoI because of its very low corporate tax regime, as is Apple. The only way to stop this from happening is for countries to get together in a large Bloc and create rules to stop it. However, you are arguing for us to leave just such a large bloc.

No if the UK government wants apply a rule on tax it applies that rule on tax... when its out of the EU. There are limitations whilst it remains. 

[jakswan]

Yes ... and.

My local council was elected on a manifesto and they are unable to deliver on many of those issues because of the Westminster government. Likewise regional assemblies and parliaments in Scotland, Wales and London. There are plenty of things a westminster government cannot do because it is a member of NATO, and of the UN, and of the OECD etc etc. That's life - if you want to be part of a club and benefit from that membership (as the UK does by being part of the UN, NATO, EU, OECD etc) then there are some restrictions on your freedom to act.

And actually many of those policies that you claim they are unable to deliver because of the EU are in fact deliverable (e.g. restrictions on benefits) but Westminster pretends that the EU is preventing them. Others would still be undeliverable even if we were outside the EU unless we are prepared to accept swinging restrictions on trade with most of the rest of europe (including some countries that aren't even in the EU).

Sure there are restrictions on our freedom to act, that is the price you have to pay to be a member.

I think the price is too high with regard to the EU and I'll be voting to leave.

You seem to have this notion that you have to be in favour of joining all organisation or against joining any.