The result of the EU referendum:

[ProfessorDavey]

Oh FFS, understand what investment and return from investment means. I pay in£x to my ISA every month, where x is quite significant. However, I get something called a "return on investment" back, which is usually more than x. Can you understand that principle? i.e. paying something in and thereby getting more back? Because the way you are arguing here, it suggests you can't.

I know - he really is acting like a bit of a numpty in insisting on only referring to what we put in and not what we get back.

You could use the same approach to everything - so we 'send' £2.6 billion every week to the NHS - have to stop that then. Oh I forgot, we get a health service in return.

Jaskwan seems to understand the cost of everything (or rather the EU) but the value of nothing.

[jakswan]

It wasn't my answer, but the CBI's who you will no doubt be aware are the leading organisation representing British business. So somehow you, Jakswan, apparently know better about the benefits of EU membership on British trade, businesses and industry than the CBI, whose members are of course involved in ... err ... British trade, business and industry.

There have been other studies which formed a different view.

And the £60-70 billion benefit isn't the values of trade with the rest of the EU, but specifically the additional benefit we get from being an EU member and therefore being able to trade as part of a free trade area. Leave the EU and that benefit is lost, unless of course you agree (like Norway) to be part of the EEA but outside the EU and then of course the contributions to the EU will kick in again and you will have to abide by pretty well all of the EU regulation.

No a free trade agreement does not mean you become a member of EEA.

[/quote]
And get £1 billion benefit a week in return - sounds like a no-brainer. [/quote]

As I said I disagree.

Mexico's deal with the EU is on the basis of supporting developing economies, in other words to slowly lift up developing countries and therefore increase the market ultimately for trade from the EU. There is no way that the UK would have the same kind of deal because it isn't a developing economy ... unless, of course the economy tanks so much from no longer being part of the EU that we become classed as a developing economy

Again you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

Indeed, which is why BMW, and other major investors, will pull out of the UK and relocated to another part of the EU to ensure they benefit from the 90% of the EU market that isn't in the UK, tariff-free, rather than just the 10% that is the UK and pay tariff on the remaining 90%.

Won't apply to a free trade agreement.

Clearly you think there is a price on democracy I'm not prepared to sell out so cheaply.

[jakswan]

It's only getting boring because the BREXITers don't want to answer the questions.

You might not like the answers but you been given them.

What is this? Why are you talking about?

The UK can't stop Google from invoicing UK business from Ireland currently, the EU could if it gets round to it.

Let's talk about the falling wages as a result of leaving the EU.

Evasion noted.

[jakswan]

Oh FFS, understand what investment and return from investment means. I pay in£x to my ISA every month, where x is quite significant. However, I get something called a "return on investment" back, which is usually more than x. Can you understand that principle? i.e. paying something in and thereby getting more back? Because the way you are arguing here, it suggests you can't.

Please play the ball, you and Prof have been reduced to name calling, I know your losing the debate but try to stay focused on the argument.

In what way is the money we pour into the EU an investment. An ISA is an investment I agree, your tax bill is a cost you pay. You can argue there is a benefit sure but to pretend its not a cost would render everything as an "investment". 

Blimey next you'll be spinning the lie that the migrant camp will move to the UK.

[ProfessorDavey]

There have been other studies which formed a different view.

Then link to them. And ensure they are from as credible source as the CBI - in other words from a source that represents and understands business and industry and not from some swivelled eyes eurosceptic loons.

[jakswan]

Then link to them. And ensure they are from as credible source as the CBI - in other words from a source that represents and understands business and industry and not from some swivelled eyes eurosceptic loons.

Lets just check for consistency first, the CBI are an authority as far as you are concerned with regard to Business and Industry?

[ProfessorDavey]

Lets just check for consistency first, the CBI are an authority as far as you are concerned with regard to Business and Industry?

The report I am discussing involved gaining data from CBI member organisations, firstly on their views on the EU and secondly on the benefit to their businesses from being a member of the EU, plus incorporating evidence from hundred of other sources on the subject - this is research conducted through the leading UK organisation representing business and industry and gaining much of its data directly from businesses and industry.

So yes it is authoritative.

What it is not is:

1. Data generates by a partisan organisation whose primary remit is to campaign to stay or leave.
2. Individual views of a single person which may not be representative of the overall views of industry/business or even
3. Selected rent a crowd letter signed by a cherry picked group of business leaders, selected on the basis of their personal views on the EU.

None of the above would be authoritative.

So I wait for your research data that meets these stringent criteria.

[jakswan]

The report I am discussing involved gaining data from CBI member organisations, firstly on their views on the EU and secondly on the benefit to their businesses from being a member of the EU, plus incorporating evidence from hundred of other sources on the subject - this is research conducted through the leading UK organisation representing business and industry and gaining much of its data directly from businesses and industry.

So yes it is authoritative.

So its position on TTIP you agree with?

[ProfessorDavey]

So its position on TTIP you agree with?

Diversionary tactic.

I am still waiting for you to provide your authoritative report on the economic benefits (or otherwise) of EU membership.

[ProfessorDavey]

Clearly you think there is a price on democracy I'm not prepared to sell out so cheaply.

Last time I looked the EU was a democratic organisation with decisions taken by a combination of agreement of the democratically elected member state governments and also the directly elected European Parliament.

And on the latter, in the 2014 EU elections I had a direct democratic say in the election of 7 MEPs out of a total of 751 - I make that a direct say in 0.93% of MEPs. In the 2015 UK general election I had a direct democratic say in the election of 1 MPs out of a total of 650 - I make that a direct say in 0.15% of MPs.

[jakswan]

Diversionary tactic.

I am still waiting for you to provide your authoritative report on the economic benefits (or otherwise) of EU membership.

No, you are citing the CBI as an authority, I'm trying to ensure you are not cherry picking.

[jakswan]

Last time I looked the EU was a democratic organisation with decisions taken by a combination of agreement of the democratically elected member state governments and also the directly elected European Parliament.

And on the latter, in the 2014 EU elections I had a direct democratic say in the election of 7 MEPs out of a total of 751 - I make that a direct say in 0.93% of MEPs. In the 2015 UK general election I had a direct democratic say in the election of 1 MPs out of a total of 650 - I make that a direct say in 0.15% of MPs.

I have more influence over how my MP vote and what MP is elected. Meanwhile my local EU MP is toothless.

[ProfessorDavey]

No, you are citing the CBI as an authority, I'm trying to ensure you are not cherry picking.

No I am citing an exhaustive report produced by the CBI as authoritative, in part due to its provenance.

But your evasion is still noted. Can you please provide me with details of your similarly authoritative report on the economic benefits (or otherwise) of EU membership.

[ProfessorDavey]

I have more influence over how my MP vote and what MP is elected. Meanwhile my local EU MP is toothless.

I doubt it.

Given that my local MP is not from a party I support I have little likelihood of influencing how she will vote and very little ability to influence her. As there are a number of MEPs in my area there is at least one (actually only one, but at least that is something), who is likely to be receptive to my views and likely to take them forward. And as an aside I always get a Christmas card from him - fat chance of getting that from my MP. This is the value of multimember areas - the likelihood that there will be someone representing you whose basic political views you agree with.

And on influencing who is elected - my vote counted in the EU elections - I got one member, out of 7, from my political party of choice. My vote didn't count in the 2015 general election as under FPTP my preferred candidate came third. I am not represented by an MP with political views that broadly align with my own.

[jakswan]

No I am citing an exhaustive report produced by the CBI as authoritative, in part due to its provenance.

But your evasion is still noted. Can you please provide me with details of your similarly authoritative report on the economic benefits (or otherwise) of EU membership.

So you agree with their conclusions on TTIP another exhaustive report?

I'm just trying to ensure you are consistent.

I'm sure I could get you those reports and I'm confident you won't consider them valid for some tortured reason which boils down to they are not the CBI. All of those would be an argument from authority anyway and I could cite the former Director General Digby Jones of the CBI, or go with Mark Carney 'no impact to jobs or wages' or how about the leader of Remain Lord Rose 'wages will go up'.

[jakswan]

I doubt it.

Given that my local MP is not from a party I support I have little likelihood of influencing how she will vote and very little ability to influence her. As there are a number of MEPs in my area there is at least one (actually only one, but at least that is something), who is likely to be receptive to my views and likely to take them forward. And as an aside I always get a Christmas card from him - fat chance of getting that from my MP. This is the value of multimember areas - the likelihood that there will be someone representing you whose basic political views you agree with.

And on influencing who is elected - my vote counted in the EU elections - I got one member, out of 7, from my political party of choice. My vote didn't count in the 2015 general election as under FPTP my preferred candidate came third. I am not represented by an MP with political views that broadly align with my own.

I have written to my MP several times and got a reply back on each occasion and she is not from a party I have always voted for. Opinions in the Uk influence MP's in the UK, who can influence government policy, EU MP's are toothless.

[ProfessorDavey]

So you agree with their conclusions on TTIP another exhaustive report?

We aren't discussing the TTIP so this is irrelevant. And your obvious evasion tactic is clear.

Again, can you please answer my relevant question, namely:

Can you please provide me with details of your similarly authoritative report on the economic benefits (or otherwise) of EU membership.

I'm sure I could get you those reports and I'm confident you won't consider them valid for some tortured reason which boils down to they are not the CBI. All of those would be an argument from authority anyway and I could cite the former Director General Digby Jones of the CBI, or go with Mark Carney 'no impact to jobs or wages' or how about the leader of Remain Lord Rose 'wages will go up'.

Oh so you 'get you those reports' could you - well do so please. And I'm not talking about individual comments of personal opinion but proper reports with evidence.

But on personal viewpoint you have rather shot yourself in the foot by mentioning Mark Carney who this very morning had publicly stated that the EU, in his opinion, has helped the UK economy. He referred to a Bank of England report, stating that that EU membership had "increased the dynamism of the UK economy and correspondingly its ability to grow without generating risks to the Bank's primary objectives of monetary and financial stability".

So evasion noted and still waiting.

No more diversionary tactics on TTIP please.

[jakswan]

We aren't discussing the TTIP so this is irrelevant. And your obvious evasion tactic is clear.

Again, can you please answer my relevant question, namely:

Can you please provide me with details of your similarly authoritative report on the economic benefits (or otherwise) of EU membership.
Oh so you 'get you those reports' could you - well do so please. And I'm not talking about individual comments of personal opinion but proper reports with evidence.

But on personal viewpoint you have rather shot yourself in the foot by mentioning Mark Carney who this very morning had publicly stated that the EU, in his opinion, has helped the UK economy. He referred to a Bank of England report, stating that that EU membership had "increased the dynamism of the UK economy and correspondingly its ability to grow without generating risks to the Bank's primary objectives of monetary and financial stability".

So evasion noted and still waiting.

No more diversionary tactics on TTIP please.

My point stands I'll get reports you'll dismiss them because they are not XYZ.

I would agree leaving the EU represents a change and brings a degree of instability. The vast majority of countries don't belong to the EU and many of them do just fine.

It boils down to this, there may be an economic risk in leaving the EU, however leaving the EU represents a better way for this country to be run with a more democratically accountable government.

How much better and how much risk is subjective, I think its worth it, especially with immigration running so high, a housing crisis and the infrastructure of the country not ready to sustain such a rapidly growing population.

You may disagree and that is fine but please don't claim to have some objective study from an organisation that is some sort of authority view, especially when you know full well you would not agree with every report they write.

[ProfessorDavey]

My point stands I'll get reports you'll dismiss them because they are not XYZ.

How do you know how I will respond to them?

Frankly it is an irrelevant point as you haven't provided any reports for me to respond to, all you do is evade the request, which remains:

Can you please provide me with details of your similarly authoritative report on the economic benefits (or otherwise) of EU membership.

[Jack Knave]

Farage is a great performer, he can 'work the crowd', but there is no substance to his 'material'. He is just an entertainer with a handful of one liners.

He remains the CLOWN.

You probably say that because you are too stupid to see otherwise. What he says is right.

[Jack Knave]

I think that you are possibly asking for the moon here, JK.  Do you know of any Government-related computer system that has ever been 'up to scratch'?

Up to scratch doesn't mean perfect. We have no choice here if we are going to control our borders. But one thing has transpired, it seems to me, that computers can not do all the work and we need more humans on the ground to do their bit.

[Jack Knave]

I heard it at the time, JK.  I'm still trying to discover which syllables had even a hint of the truth within them   

Keep trying Hope perhaps one day you'll become good enough to understand, though I'm not holding my breath.

[Jack Knave]

And finally you get it - the competence and ability to enforce the UK border regulations are a matter entirely for the UK government now - it is nothing to do with the EU. If they are cr*p, under-resouced, incompetent that is entirely the responsibility of the UK government.

Do you think the EU somehow phone up Theresa May and ask her to under-staff the passport control at Luton Airport - of course they don't. If Luton airport border control is understaffed blame the UK government - do not blame the EU, because it is nothing to do with them.

But we can't stop the EU citizens coming in, and the number of non-EU lot coming in is well over Camerons 10,000s because he's done bugger all to try to get them down. And the new NI numbers given out to migrants indicate that it is more like that 600,000 came last year.

[Jack Knave]

Actually, we can't. Tariffs are a barrier to trade. If we all set tariffs, less trade happens which means everybody suffers.

So why has the EU got tariffs if they are a bad thing?

And if their tariffs means their goods cost more then we will buy less and go somewhere else.

[Jack Knave]

Argue the point, not some silly straw man.

Well, its your straw man against mine, at high noon!!!