The result of the EU referendum:

[jeremyp]

So you assert.

A study from the CBI was cited earlier. It's funny but I thiought ignoring evidence was not your style.

Not quite from Google's POV its ok from the British public's POV it isn't, I'm looking at it from British public's POV.

So am I, as a member of the British public. You think Google needs to pay fair taxes in Britain, but, on the other hand, Britain should not pay "taxes" in Europe. I think you have double standards.

You need to stop before positing this rubbish, an isolationist would advocate we stay out of foreign affairs, a nationalist would be more accurate.

No. You need to read what you wrote. Your concerns end with the UK border apparently. That is isolationist thinking. 

So we are not arguing for Brexit and then using the £250 million a week to help the poorest nations in the world.

What £250 million per week? You say this as though there are no financial negatives from leaving the EU. the £250 million will not exist because of the economic down turn that will result from leaving the biggest trade bloc in the World.

Freedom of movement of Labour, do you need a diagram?

The question was how do you think leaving the EU will stop the 300,000 migrants coming here. You can use a diagram if you like to help explain your answer.

Yes the infrastructure of the entire country needs to be controlled in line with immigration.

And how will leaving the EU help us to get our own house in order?

I think immigration is greatly beneficial to a country, massive uncontrolled immigration is dangerous.

0.5% of our population every year is massive uncontrolled immigration is it?

Not least because mainstream political parties have a tendency to ignore views for fear of being called names by  the likes of you and Prof, which drives support for the hard right, UKIP etc.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here? I'm pretty much in favour of letting anybody in who wants to come here. How is that driving support for UKIP?

Its not about the number but the content, Ireland might not have a struggling steel industry and not wish to impose tariffs on Chinese steel at the same level as the UK who does have a struggling steel industry.

If our steel industry struggles, it is because it can't compete on price with other countries. Trade tariffs are really not the answer to that problem. Such tariffs are the antithesis of good trade deals. The other country would impose tit-for-tat tariffs that hurt everybody.

They wouldn't be able to invoice us from Ireland for translations taking place in the UK if we left the EU and passed a law to that effect.

Why not? Would we not have a trade deal that allows companies in the EU to trade with us? Are we going to insist that anybody who wants to sell things in the UK needs a UK based office? That won't fly.

Concerned but I'm not buying your disaster rhetoric thanks.

I'll take "concerned". So you admit the possibility that we will be worse off following Brexit? Please think about what that would mean for the people of the UK.

You need to attack my arguments, attacking the argument of 'others' is the definition of a straw-man.

Nope. A straw man is making up an argument and attacking that. Just because I address my posts as responses to your posts does not mean I can't attack arguments by other Brexiters.

Example
I spoke to a bloke whose in the remain campaign and he hates brown people but likes whites from Poland he thinks staying in will keep brown people out, remain people are racist.

That's not a legitimate argument for remaining in the EU and it's certainly not a position I would defend. I condemn whichever remainer made that argument. Who was it?

The issue with Greece wasn't to do with its contributions

Who said it was? I saisd that an economy the size of Greece caused chaos, I didn't say anything about Greece's contributions.

do you want another go, tip: think Euro!

Brexit is not about the Euro. The Euro was always a basd idea.

[Jack Knave]

Why should anyone take your views seriously when they are about as cogent as a UKIP sound bite.

You claim to have no flag to fly but that above is plain rubbish, and just a dog whistle for the Lefties. Judging by what you have been saying, and its heavy bias for the EU, you must have several dogs in the race!!!

[ProfessorDavey]

You claim to have no flag to fly but that above is plain rubbish, and just a dog whistle for the Lefties. Judging by what you have been saying, and its heavy bias for the EU, you must have several dogs in the race!!!

Dogs? Race? Does anyone have a clue what JK is on about

Another comment about as cogent as a UKIP sound bite - albeit rather longer.

[jeremyp]

Dogs? Race? Does anyone have a clue what JK is on about

Another comment about as cogent as a UKIP sound bite - albeit rather longer.

When somebody says they have "no dog in the race" it means they don't see the outcome as affecting them in any way. So what Jack is saying is that you believe you will be personally affected by the outcome of the referendum. This is, of course, blatantly true: we are all going to be affected if the country votes for Brexit, probably in a bad way.

[ProfessorDavey]

When somebody says they have "no dog in the race" it means they don't see the outcome as affecting them in any way. So what Jack is saying is that you believe you will be personally affected by the outcome of the referendum. This is, of course, blatantly true: we are all going to be affected if the country votes for Brexit, probably in a bad way.

Well of course we will be affected by Brexit - what a bonkers suggestion that your view is somehow invalidated or diminished by being affected. Without doubt the Brexit brigade also think they will be affected if we leave the EU - why else would they be campaigning for it. The point isn't whether Brexit will affect us - it will - it is about whether or not we feel that will be a positive or a negative change. I, of course think that change would be deeply negative, backward looking and regressive. And that is on all sorts of grounds, not just economic. Brexiters have a different view, but still think that Brexit will affect them.

If you don't want change and the referendum to have an effect, vote to stay.

Still unclear as to why I have two dogs in the race though.

[jeremyp]

Still unclear as to why I have two dogs in the race though.

In my opinion, the minimum count for "several" is three. Two would be "a couple of".

[ProfessorDavey]

In my opinion, the minimum count for "several" is three. Two would be "a couple of".

Yup you are right - I wonder what all these dogs are then.

[jakswan]

A study from the CBI was cited earlier. It's funny but I thiought ignoring evidence was not your style.

If you someone wants to consider the CBI an authority on all things economic then they need to accept all of their studies. If they cherry pick then that would be confirmation bias.

So am I, as a member of the British public. You think Google needs to pay fair taxes in Britain, but, on the other hand, Britain should not pay "taxes" in Europe. I think you have double standards.

No one is a company and the other is a country.

No. You need to read what you wrote. Your concerns end with the UK border apparently. That is isolationist thinking.

No opposing foreign aid would be isolationist not wanting to be part of the EU isn't.

What £250 million per week? You say this as though there are no financial negatives from leaving the EU. the £250 million will not exist because of the economic down turn that will result from leaving the biggest trade bloc in the World.

The effective £250 million we send to the EU. The negatives are based on your opinion.

The question was how do you think leaving the EU will stop the 300,000 migrants coming here. You can use a diagram if you like to help explain your answer.

In my opinion the Uk will have a free trade deal without free movement of labour.

And how will leaving the EU help us to get our own house in order?

It will lower demand whilst we fix the issue of supply.

0.5% of our population every year is massive uncontrolled immigration is it?

Its immigration, the EU part of it is uncontrolled and 300,000 is a massive number.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here? I'm pretty much in favour of letting anybody in who wants to come here. How is that driving support for UKIP?

Regardless of any consequences?

If our steel industry struggles, it is because it can't compete on price with other countries. Trade tariffs are really not the answer to that problem. Such tariffs are the antithesis of good trade deals. The other country would impose tit-for-tat tariffs that hurt everybody.

So China can continue to dump steel in the UK resulting in thousands without jobs.

Why not? Would we not have a trade deal that allows companies in the EU to trade with us? Are we going to insist that anybody who wants to sell things in the UK needs a UK based office? That won't fly.

No but anyone who earns money from advertising shown on UK computers by UK citizens should pay tax in the UK.

I'll take "concerned". So you admit the possibility that we will be worse off following Brexit? Please think about what that would mean for the people of the UK.

There are risks both ways, the collapse of the Euro could have dire consequences for the Uk if we remain to name just one example. 

Nope. A straw man is making up an argument and attacking that. Just because I address my posts as responses to your posts does not mean I can't attack arguments by other Brexiters.

If you are replying to me an attack a position or argument I have not forwarded it is a straw man. You can argue against other arguments but please ensure you cite who made those arguments.

That's not a legitimate argument for remaining in the EU and it's certainly not a position I would defend. I condemn whichever remainer made that argument. Who was it?

It was an example of a strawman.

Who said it was? I saisd that an economy the size of Greece caused chaos, I didn't say anything about Greece's contributions.
Brexit is not about the Euro.

You mentioned our contributions claiming suggesting it would cause a crisis.

The Euro was always a basd idea.

So you want us to remain in a political union with countries who use a currency is a bad idea.

[Jack Knave]

Dogs? Race? Does anyone have a clue what JK is on about

Another comment about as cogent as a UKIP sound bite - albeit rather longer.

You claimed that you were not bias for the EU but that your views were based on reasoning things out. Well my statement basically called you a liar. Now that's not to hard for you to understand is it?

[Jack Knave]

Well of course we will be affected by Brexit - what a bonkers suggestion that your view is somehow invalidated or diminished by being affected. Without doubt the Brexit brigade also think they will be affected if we leave the EU - why else would they be campaigning for it. The point isn't whether Brexit will affect us - it will - it is about whether or not we feel that will be a positive or a negative change. I, of course think that change would be deeply negative, backward looking and regressive. And that is on all sorts of grounds, not just economic. Brexiters have a different view, but still think that Brexit will affect them.

If you don't want change and the referendum to have an effect, vote to stay.

Still unclear as to why I have two dogs in the race though.

Neil Kinnock has a dog in the EU race because if we leave he will lose his sinecure and pension. He is therefore bias. We all have something to risk here but as that is common to all it cancels itself out leaving the special cases. As Davey is so pushy about staying in he must have a dog in the race in a similarly way that Kinnock does.

[jeremyp]

Neil Kinnock has a dog in the EU race

We were talking about Professor Davy, not Neil Kinnock.

However, since you bring it up, if we leave the EU, lots of British people working in countries in it will lose their jobs.

As Davey is so pushy about staying in he must have a dog in the race in a similarly way that Kinnock does.

That doesn't follow at all. If we leave the EU and the economy has a downturn as a result, everybody in the UK will lose. Everybody in the UK has a dog in this race. However, it's a strange race because, if the wrong decision is made, everybody loses. As I said before, the economy is not a zero sum game.

[Jack Knave]

We were talking about Professor Davy, not Neil Kinnock.

I used Neil Kinnock as an example of what I was saying with the dog-in-the-race thing.

That doesn't follow at all. If we leave the EU and the economy has a downturn as a result, everybody in the UK will lose. Everybody in the UK has a dog in this race. However, it's a strange race because, if the wrong decision is made, everybody loses. As I said before, the economy is not a zero sum game.

But some have even more to lose like an EU pension or something, and the way Davey is going at it, for the Remain lot, he must have something extra to lose than the rest of us. And we all have something to lose whether we Leave or Stay.

[jeremyp]

But some have even more to lose like an EU pension or something

If PD and I are right, and we leave, lots of people in the UK will lose their jobs. I would suggest that is almost as calamitous as losing your pension.

[Jack Knave]

If PD and I are right, and we leave, lots of people in the UK will lose their jobs. I would suggest that is almost as calamitous as losing your pension.

You know as a fact that they will lose their jobs? This is just guess work on your part!

If we stay in the EU we will lose many jobs because the EU is falling apart. See I can do it too!!! 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You know as a fact that they will lose their jobs? This is just guess work on your part!

If we stay in the EU we will lose many jobs because the EU is falling apart. See I can do it too!!! 

People should be voting with an eye to their jobs, their job security, pay and conditions and health and safety and with a view to who is going to be running the country by the end of the year.

[jeremyp]

You know as a fact that they will lose their jobs? This is just guess work on your part!

It's a risk that needs to be taken into account.

If we stay in the EU we will lose many jobs because the EU is falling apart. See I can do it too!!! 

So now you are saying that the EU does create more jobs. Well done.

[Jack Knave]

People should be voting with an eye to their jobs, their job security, pay and conditions and health and safety and with a view to who is going to be running the country by the end of the year.

That doesn't say which side of the fence you fall. Both options have their risks, it all depends on the way one pitches it as to how it is all seen.

[Hope]

People should be voting with an eye to their jobs, their job security, pay and conditions and health and safety and with a view to who is going to be running the country by the end of the year.

I completely disagree.  People ought to be voting with an eye to the British and European economies, to the long-term prospects for the UK both within and without the EU, and also to the welfare of the populations of both blocs.  Jobs and everything associated with work are always going to be dependent on the economy, local and global.

[Jack Knave]

It's a risk that needs to be taken into account.

That's true on both sides of the fence or argument. But a lot of the Remain's arguments on this are just project fear.

So now you are saying that the EU does create more jobs. Well done.

You need to take your time and read posts carefully. What you say here is non-sense as a response to my post. Something you do quite a lot.

[Hope]

If PD and I are right, and we leave, lots of people in the UK will lose their jobs. I would suggest that is almost as calamitous as losing your pension.

I suspect that job losses will occur whichever way the vote goes.  The global, and therefore the British economy is currently on a very rocky basis.

[jeremyp]

That's true on both sides of the fence or argument. But a lot of the Remain's arguments on this are just project fear.

You make it sound like this is a symmetrical thing. The choice is actually between what we are doing now and changing direction. The question should be framed as "will we be better off or worse off if we leave"?

You need to take your time and read posts carefully. What you say here is non-sense as a response to my post. Something you do quite a lot.

You need to read your posts more carefully. You said that, if the EU collapses, a lot of people will lose their jobs. This can only mean that the EU has created many jobs.

[jeremyp]

I suspect that job losses will occur whichever way the vote goes.

If we vote to leave, there will be job losses as a direct consequence of the the decision.

If we vote to stay, there may be job losses if there is a global economic down turn but that won't be a consequence of the decision.

Incidentally, Brexit would be a huge economic shock for the EU. If anything can cause a global downturn that will be it.

[jakswan]

If we vote to leave, there will be job losses as a direct consequence of the the decision.

If we vote to stay, there may be job losses if there is a global economic down turn but that won't be a consequence of the decision.

Incidentally, Brexit would be a huge economic shock for the EU. If anything can cause a global downturn that will be it.

They said the same about us not joining the Euro. There will be a free trade agreement and an end to political union need not impact the economy at all.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

They said the same about us not joining the Euro. There will be a free trade agreement and an end to political union need not impact the economy at all.

I'm afraid it is vote for your Job time.
I'm afraid I don't know what employment will be like under a Brexit regime sans pro EU conservatives.
I don't know who will receive the benefits of Brexit  but since the post referendum govt will be right wing, workers rights denying conservatives I expect we will all have to wait for trickle down as per usual until we can put things a bit straighter in 2020.

Care to answer those quezzies Jack?

[Hope]

That's true on both sides of the fence or argument. But a lot of the Remain's arguments on this are just project fear.

Over the last 3 or 4 months, I've read a fair amount of articles and op-eds on the pros and cons of our remaining or leaving.  Whilst a few of the 'Remain' articles have had a sense of fear in them, I have yet to read an 'Out' article that isn't all about fear.  I therefore have to say that I find the 'Out' campaign's constant harping on about 'Project Fear' to be sort of self-descriptive.