The result of the EU referendum:

[ProfessorDavey]

If PD and I are right, and we leave, lots of people in the UK will lose their jobs. I would suggest that is almost as calamitous as losing your pension.

PD - is that me?

If so I don't think I did say that I think that leave will be the result. If I gave that impression it wasn't intended. I think that remain will win and I want them to do so. I think the key is that people, particularly the undecideds, tend to swing toward the status quo when push comes to shove. We say think in the indyref and I think we will see it again in June.

I also agree that there would be major economic problems were the UK to vote to leave and those would extend for years which would be the length of time it would take to unravel ourselves from the EU and to get to a point of certainty again. And even then we would be weakened economically as we would no longer be part of the largest economic free trade block on the planet.

[Hope]

And even then we would be weakened economically as we would no longer be part of the largest economic free trade block on the planet.

Whilst I'm not in favour of leaving the Union, the pride in which some talk about free trade zones worries me.  Free trade can often mean unfair trading practices and policies.

[jakswan]

I'm afraid it is vote for your Job time.
I'm afraid I don't know what employment will be like under a Brexit regime sans pro EU conservatives.
I don't know who will receive the benefits of Brexit  but since the post referendum govt will be right wing, workers rights denying conservatives I expect we will all have to wait for trickle down as per usual until we can put things a bit straighter in 2020.

Care to answer those quezzies Jack?

You have made assertions can't see any questions.

[Jack Knave]

You make it sound like this is a symmetrical thing. The choice is actually between what we are doing now and changing direction. The question should be framed as "will we be better off or worse off if we leave"?

No one can predict the future so it all boils down to arguments and speculations. Nothing about symmetry.

You need to read your posts more carefully. You said that, if the EU collapses, a lot of people will lose their jobs. This can only mean that the EU has created many jobs.

No, it means if we stay on the sinking ship the EU Titanic it will drag everything of the UK down with it, even the stuff not strongly related to or affected by the EU and its directives.

So my answer to your first bit is that all the pro and con arguments are superfluous because the EU is a sinking entity and though it won't be great in the lifeboats it is better than swimming with the fishes.

[Jack Knave]

1) I'm afraid it is vote for your Job time.
2) I'm afraid I don't know what employment will be like under a Brexit regime sans pro EU conservatives.
3) I don't know who will receive the benefits of Brexit  but since the post referendum govt will be right wing, workers rights denying conservatives I expect we will all have to wait for trickle down as per usual until we can put things a bit straighter in 2020.

Care to answer those quezzies Jack?

1) It is a vote for your children's future time and the future of the UK. It would be wrong and stupid to be myopic with this referendum by just focusing on the here and now selfish needs.

2) I'm guessing you probably don't. But there again who knows what the future will bring regardless of the circumstances and conditions that are at hand. Those in good times have been surprised how good has turned into bad times.

3) You really think the Conservatives are going to just go back to business as usual as they were 2015? I reckon there is going to be a massive fight in the party if it is a Brexit. Cameron and Osborne can't survive, they have messed up too much, and offended too many of their fellow Tories, to stay in office. There may even be an early GE.

[Jack Knave]

Over the last 3 or 4 months, I've read a fair amount of articles and op-eds on the pros and cons of our remaining or leaving.  Whilst a few of the 'Remain' articles have had a sense of fear in them, I have yet to read an 'Out' article that isn't all about fear.  I therefore have to say that I find the 'Out' campaign's constant harping on about 'Project Fear' to be sort of self-descriptive.

I don't think you quite understand, Hope. Project fear is about creating straw men (i.e lies) to provide vehicles to instil that fear into the people. What the Leave people are doing are just presenting the facts of the matter. Just because the facts are scary does not mean that the facts are a project fear endeavour - they are the facts of the situation and the referendum!!!

[jeremyp]

They said the same about us not joining the Euro.

Do you realise that, if anything, that point supports staying in the EU i.e. the status quo.

Of course, in reality it's irrelevant to the present question.

There will be a free trade agreement and an end to political union need not impact the economy at all.

You really are living in cloud cuckoo land. Let me try to put it in simple steps.

Yes, there probably will be a free trade agreement, but while it is being negotiated, there will be uncertainty which is never good for the economy.

If we vote for Brexit, the second biggest economy in the EU will no longer be a part of it. That can only be catastrophically destabilising for the EU. If the EU economy goes into meltdown (which is entirely possible) that is bad for the UK.

[jeremyp]

No one can predict the future so it all boils down to arguments and speculations. Nothing about symmetry.

Yes, the choice is

- carry on as we are now and we know more or less what that future is: more of the same

- make a massive change and see how it pans out.

I would suggest that the risk in the first option is vastly lower than the risk in the second.

No, it means if we stay on the sinking ship the EU Titanic it will drag everything of the UK down with it

You only have your small minded prejudice to say that the EU is sinking. It's not.

[jakswan]

Do you realise that, if anything, that point supports staying in the EU i.e. the status quo.

Of course, in reality it's irrelevant to the present question.
You really are living in cloud cuckoo land. Let me try to put it in simple steps.

Yes, there probably will be a free trade agreement, but while it is being negotiated, there will be uncertainty which is never good for the economy.

If we vote for Brexit, the second biggest economy in the EU will no longer be a part of it. That can only be catastrophically destabilising for the EU. If the EU economy goes into meltdown (which is entirely possible) that is bad for the UK.

No the scare stories on parade when we considered joining the EURO which proved to be nonsense are relevant if they are much the same scare stories.

We have two years to negotiate a free trade agreement which is the agreement in place already. How can the UK remaining part of the an economy (the Free Trade area) be catastrophically destabilising when it ends political union.

Name calling only further undermines your argument.

[Jack Knave]

Yes, the choice is

- carry on as we are now and we know more or less what that future is: more of the same

- make a massive change and see how it pans out.

I would suggest that the risk in the first option is vastly lower than the risk in the second.

But your conclusion to staying in the EU is wrong. It isn't the same in the long run. The EU is failing and falling apart and the Eurozone will become a dominate part dragging everybody who is in this club to Ever-Closer-Union. The status quo is not an option here.

You only have your small minded prejudice to say that the EU is sinking. It's not.

It is neither small nor prejudice but based on fact. Your bias is clouding your vision and your ability to see common sense. Plus possibly a monetary incentive which you are dreading losing...

[jeremyp]

No the scare stories on parade when we considered joining the EURO which proved to be nonsense are relevant if they are much the same scare stories.

But this is not a referendum about joining a currency, it is a referendum about leaving the EU.

We have two years to negotiate a free trade agreement which is the agreement in place already.

That's rather presumptuous of you. You have no idea if we will be able to get the same deal as we have now. In fact we couldn't. The deal we have now gives us some say in the rules that apply to the EU trade area.

How can the UK remaining part of the an economy (the Free Trade area) be catastrophically destabilising when it ends political union.

Why do you think politics and economics are independent things? For example, do you honestly think we can leave the EU without causing massive uncertainty in the European stock markets? Do you honestly think that our contribution to the EU budget will not be missed?

Name calling only further undermines your argument.

What name did I call you?

[jeremyp]

The EU is failing and falling apart

So you keep saying but without any argument to back you up.

and the Eurozone will become a dominate part dragging everybody who is in this club to Ever-Closer-Union.

Ha! After Greece, do you really think that is still going to happen?

Your bias is clouding your vision and your ability to see common sense. Plus possibly a monetary incentive which you are dreading losing...

I don't understand why you aren't dreading the loss of the monetary incentive. If the EU economy tanks after Brexit, we will all be worse off.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Fellow Europeans,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36039925

My thoughts exactly, move along, nothing to see here, why are we even having this discussion, well I suppose the Cameron's and Farage's of this world have been useful, the EU does need reforming, looked at, scrutinized but as Mr Corbyn advises, better to do that from within.

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

...the EU does need reforming, looked at, scrutinized but as Mr Corbyn advises, better to do that from within.

Absolutely.

[jakswan]

But this is not a referendum about joining a currency, it is a referendum about leaving the EU.

From which flows debate, and one side of the debate used the same arguments to support the deabte around joining the EURO.

That's rather presumptuous of you. You have no idea if we will be able to get the same deal as we have now. In fact we couldn't.

I think we could get a free trade deal and have seen no convincing argument why we couldn't. Asserting that we can't is presumptuous, makes you a hypocrite as well.

The deal we have now gives us some say in the rules that apply to the EU trade area.

We'll still be part of the free trade area and will have some say in what rules apply. We'll also re-take our seat at the WTO.

Why do you think politics and economics are independent things?

I never claimed they were.

For example, do you honestly think we can leave the EU without causing massive uncertainty in the European stock markets?

If the UK has a free trade agreement then no uncertainty will follow. 

Do you honestly think that our contribution to the EU budget will not be missed?

It will be replaced by other EU countries with developed economies contributing more, or, EU countries with less developed economies getting less. Meanwhile we can spend that money on better services for British people.

What name did I call you?

Accused me of 'living in cloud cuckoo land'.

[Jack Knave]

So you keep saying but without any argument to back you up.

Just holding a mirror up to your vacuous style.

Ha! After Greece, do you really think that is still going to happen?

You know the EU they aren't going to allow reality to get in the way. But you do admit, in saying this, that the EZ is stuffed and rotten and will fall apart - so hay there's hope for you yet, just keep on trying and common sense will win the day!!! 

I don't understand why you aren't dreading the loss of the monetary incentive. If the EU economy tanks after Brexit, we will all be worse off.

Because what will be will be. Because there is no way out, no way to avoid it. The EU, the banking system and Neo-Liberal project et al will, without doubt, hit a brick wall. We are all between a rock and a hard place, but it will be better (relative term) to be on the outside of the EU and its madness than deeper into its shit.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Fellow Europeans,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36039925

My thoughts exactly, move along, nothing to see here, why are we even having this discussion, well I suppose the Cameron's and Farage's of this world have been useful, the EU does need reforming, looked at, scrutinized but as Mr Corbyn advises, better to do that from within.

How?

If it is so obvious that it needs to be reformed why aren't those at the top table and in power there doing it? Because they like it the way it is because it is making them rich and even more powerful (a bit like the Soviet Union and Moscow) and they don't care about anyone else only their wet dream federal project of Ever-Closer-Union. They have the power and they are not going to listen to some turd like Corbyn et al for one minute. Look at how they treated Greece!!!!!!

[Hope]

Was Corbyn's speech yesterday a Brexit speech disguised as a pro-EU speech, or a pro-EU speech disguised as a  Brexit speech?   

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jack,

Well today we see the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain deciding to share information on the very largest tax dodgers,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36052142

A small step but a European small step, but you are right, the way Greece was treated needs to be examined, examined from within, we need to look at our own failings.

Dear Hope,

A lot of fuss has been made about Mr Corbyn's speech, U turns, toeing the party line, I think the man has just examined his conscience and decided what is best for the country, problem with Mr Corbyn, he is not a great orator, he talks sense but does not get the blood stirring.

Gonnagle.

[jakswan]

Was Corbyn's speech yesterday a Brexit speech disguised as a pro-EU speech, or a pro-EU speech disguised as a  Brexit speech?   

It would appeal to socialists I suppose.

[Jack Knave]

Was Corbyn's speech yesterday a Brexit speech disguised as a pro-EU speech, or a pro-EU speech disguised as a  Brexit speech?   

It was him trying to keep his party at peace just in the same way he has criticised Cameron for doing the same by offering this referendum...

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jack,

Well today we see the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain deciding to share information on the very largest tax dodgers,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36052142

A small step but a European small step, but you are right, the way Greece was treated needs to be examined, examined from within, we need to look at our own failings.

Two points, one how do you examine from within if the forces that operate there are way to strong for the likes of Corbyn to deal with? And two, if it was as easy as you imply how come it hasn't been done already and why was the abuse of Greece not stopped by this method long ago by the type of people you want to examine things and put things right?

The answer is, of course, that the EU elites will do what they want and all those naïve twats like Corbyn who talk about changing the EU will be kicked into touch and left to rot.

Dear Hope,

A lot of fuss has been made about Mr Corbyn's speech, U turns, toeing the party line, I think the man has just examined his conscience and decided what is best for the country, problem with Mr Corbyn, he is not a great orator, he talks sense but does not get the blood stirring.

Gonnagle.

No, he sees he is vulnerable in his own party on this point and caved in i.e. what is best for his leadership.

[Jack Knave]

It would appeal to socialists I suppose.

If they are stupid I guess it would.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jack,

You keep mentioning Corbyn, it will not just be Corbyn, it will be our government who hopefully will be our voice.

A little insight into me and I don't think I am alone, the comment on Question Time was made last night, do we even know who our MEP's  are, the Tory who was on the panel and all for Brexit made that very point.

The majority of people in this country don't know who their MEP's are or care, but now this EU referendum debackle is in our face, I now see what you have been chuntering on about and agree with most of what you are saying, you are right but I don't see that turning our back and walking away will cure the problem, stay in and fight these faceless wonders, change it from within for the better.

Gonnagle.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jack,

You keep mentioning Corbyn, it will not just be Corbyn, it will be our government who hopefully will be our voice.

A little insight into me and I don't think I am alone, the comment on Question Time was made last night, do we even know who our MEP's  are, the Tory who was on the panel and all for Brexit made that very point.

The majority of people in this country don't know who their MEP's are or care, but now this EU referendum debackle is in our face, I now see what you have been chuntering on about and agree with most of what you are saying, you are right but I don't see that turning our back and walking away will cure the problem, stay in and fight these faceless wonders, change it from within for the better.

Gonnagle.

Corbyn, Cameron, whoever, it makes no odds Brussels is too strong because it is run by the bankers and big corporations and they have the money that talks. Most of the Brussels lot are bought off so the ones like Corbyn who probably won't be will have no voice because they will be out voted - the rules are stacked in favour for this Ever-Closer-Union stuff; centralised power where the bankers etc. can rule with absolute power. This only leaves for the people to rebel i.e. civil war!!! There is no easy way out of this every turn leads to conflict.