The result of the EU referendum:

[Harrowby Hall]

What is really so desperate about this situation is that the true purpose of this referendum has nothing to do with leaving or remaining in the EU. It was a device dreamed up by David Cameron in order to keep the Conservative Party under control. He assumed that the majority of the electorate were satisfied with UK membership and their vote would shut the neanderthals up. This, of course, was the reason Harold Wilson called a similar referendum 40 years ago - to silence Tony Benn.

Whatever the result, using this tactic for party control purposes together with his inadequate action following the Scottish referendum will ensure that Cameron will enter history books as the most disastrous prime minister of modern times.

It should never be forgotten that he had only a single qualification for being party leader in the first place: his name was not Kenneth Clarke.

[jakswan]

And why would the other 27 countries agree, as this would effectively mean you could leave and retain all the benefits. It won't happen not least because France and Germany are committed to the EU project and won't risk doing anything that might result in further exits.

This is with regard to why would the other countries agree to an extension to the two years.

In reality this is yet more Brexit fantasy - bit like the SNP fantasies of 'we will automatically become members of the EU' and 'we will have an automatic right to continue to use the pound as our official currency, backed up by the Bank of England'. La, la land stuff.

Maybe if you engaged with the point being made instead of assuming the point being made you might actually have a chance of making some ground in this debate.

[jakswan]

Why is it a risk to stay in - I see no risk, we will continue as we currently are.

So you can guarantee the EU will remain as it is now forever, no Euro crisis, no Turkey joining, no TTIP?

[jakswan]

What is really so desperate about this situation is that the true purpose of this referendum has nothing to do with leaving or remaining in the EU. It was a device dreamed up by David Cameron in order to keep the Conservative Party under control. He assumed that the majority of the electorate were satisfied with UK membership and their vote would shut the neanderthals up. This, of course, was the reason Harold Wilson called a similar referendum 40 years ago - to silence Tony Benn.

What is on the ballot paper isn't 'does David Cameron suck'!

[jeremyp]

The Bremainers vote and gamble to stay, we live in a democracy.

You have mischaracterised the decision. The choice is to take a massive gamble or not to gamble. We are in the EU. The choice is to continue to be in the EU or take a massive leap into the unknown.

[jeremyp]

Mutual agreement.

Which implies the other side will be amenable to our demands.

[jeremyp]

So you can guarantee the EU will remain as it is now forever

No, but if we are in it, we can have an input into the way it changes.

no Euro crisis,

The EU will weather any Euro crisis better with us in it.

no Turkey joining

What's wrong with Turkey joining the EU?

, no TTIP?

If we are in the EU, we can stop it.

[jakswan]

You have mischaracterised the decision. The choice is to take a massive gamble or not to gamble. We are in the EU. The choice is to continue to be in the EU or take a massive leap into the unknown.

All choices are gambles.

Its your opinion leaving is a massive gamble, its my opinion staying is a massive gamble.

[jakswan]

No, but if we are in it, we can have an input into the way it changes.

If we are out of it the effects of change in the EU on the UK will be much less severe.

The EU will weather any Euro crisis better with us in it.

How?

What's wrong with Turkey joining the EU?
If we are in the EU, we can stop it.

The fact that you don't know what the issues are with Turkey joining should be enough to persuade anyone to vote leave. A country run by Europhiles is a scary prospect.

[jeremyp]

All choices are gambles.

The choice between putting all your money on black and not betting at all is a choice between a gamble and not gambling. So no, you are wrong.

Its your opinion leaving is a massive gamble, its my opinion staying is a massive gamble.

It's obviously a massive gamble to leave. You Brexiters clearly have no idea what is going to happen and it does not fill me with confidence that you seem to be completely naive about international politics and economics.

Staying in is, by comparison, a relative known quantity. It will probably be pretty much the same going forward as it is now.

[jeremyp]

If we are out of it the effects of change in the EU on the UK will be much less severe.

No, they won't. We do not live in a vacuum, we live on the edge of the largest trading bloc in the World and 50% of our trade is with it. If you think change in the EU will not affect us, you are terribly out of touch with the way the World is.

The fact that you don't know what the issues are with Turkey joining should be enough to persuade anyone to vote leave.

The fact that you are unable to articulate your reasons for being worried about Turkey joining the EU and are instead insulting me persuades me that you do not know what you are talking about. Prove me wrong: tell me what the problems are.

[ProfessorDavey]

If we are out of it the effects of change in the EU on the UK will be much less severe.

I'd argue that it would be more severe. Currently as part of the EU if there are economic difficulties the EU (largest economy on the planet) will work to support the whole of the EU in solving those problems. While we are in that includes us - the EU will help us to ride the storm. Once we are out the EU will continue to focus on helping its member states but that won't include us anymore so we will no longer be supported making it more difficult to ride the storm.

[Aruntraveller]

What a gambler!

Likewise but vice versa.

I could argue to ignore the risks of staying is highly irresponsible, I wouldn't though, politics often descends into tribalism as one side demonise the other.

As I've already said I am not a gambler your remark seems pointless. 

Likewise but vice versa - you mean if we stay in financial services centred in London will suddenly upsticks and move because there has been no change. A very strange suggestion.

Well give me the risks of staying in then - I am not (as I imagine most people are not) totally immune to arguments from either side - but not to give them and instead offer the excuse that we will descend into tribalism seems a cop out to me.

[Ricky Spanish]

I still haven't totally made my mind up about this one - but at the moment, I'm more inclined to fall into the Brexit camp. But that has more to do with my absolute hatred of Dodgy Dave and his money laundering mates and the sleazy way they seem to use this market to shift their profits!!

My favourite websites for the Pro is: http://infacts.org/

Batting for the other side is: https://fullfact.org/

But my goto site for the neutral corner has got to be: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/

[ProfessorDavey]

I still haven't totally made my mind up about this one - but at the moment, I'm more inclined to fall into the Brexit camp. But that has more to do with my absolute hatred of Dodgy Dave and his money laundering mates and the sleazy way they use this market to shift their profits!!

My favourite websites for the Pro is: http://infacts.org/

Batting for the other side is: https://fullfact.org/

But my goto site for the neutral corner has got to be: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/

Dodgy Dave will be gone in a couple of years - leaving the EU and the negative effects that will result from that decision will affect us detrimentally for decades.

Also I fail to see why leaving the EU would improve your concerns about 'money laundering mates and the sleazy way they use this market to shift their profits!!' Quite the reverse - I think that Brexit would remove some of the moderating control and regulation that helps prevent the worst excesses of the right wing uber-free market capitalist agenda. So I think were we to leave the things that concern you would get worse, not better.

[jeremyp]

I'm more inclined to fall into the Brexit camp. But that has more to do with my absolute hatred of Dodgy Dave and his money laundering mates and the sleazy way they seem to use this market to shift their profits!!

Please don't vote based on personalities, especially one who is only going to be around for a couple of years. Also, think about what Rupert Murdoch said:

"When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice"

[jakswan]

The choice between putting all your money on black and not betting at all is a choice between a gamble and not gambling. So no, you are wrong.

I disagree, but hey ho don't vote then, there you go well done you have not made any gamble.

It's obviously a massive gamble to leave. You Brexiters clearly have no idea what is going to happen and it does not fill me with confidence that you seem to be completely naive about international politics and economics.

You Bremainers do not fill me with confidence and likewise you come across to me as naive as well.

Staying in is, by comparison, a relative known quantity. It will probably be pretty much the same going forward as it is now.

probably - what a gamble.

[jakswan]

No, they won't. We do not live in a vacuum, we live on the edge of the largest trading bloc in the World and 50% of our trade is with it. If you think change in the EU will not affect us, you are terribly out of touch with the way the World is.

I never claimed 'change in the EU will not affect us', but that it will affect us less.

The fact that you are unable to articulate your reasons for being worried about Turkey joining the EU and are instead insulting me persuades me that you do not know what you are talking about. Prove me wrong: tell me what the problems are.

You want to a political union with this:-
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/15/turkish-composer-fazil-say-convicted-blasphemhy

[jeremyp]

I disagree,

You disagree that the risk in my example is asymmetrical? That's just daft.

but hey ho don't vote then, there you go well done you have not made any gamble.

I have to vote because the Brexiters want to force a risk on me that I do not want to take.

You Bremainers do not fill me with confidence and likewise you come across to me as naive as well.

That's because you don't understand the arguments.

probably - what a gamble.

A prime example of you not understanding the arguments. Gambles are not all or nothing and risks are relative.

[jakswan]

I'd argue that it would be more severe. Currently as part of the EU if there are economic difficulties the EU (largest economy on the planet) will work to support the whole of the EU in solving those problems. While we are in that includes us - the EU will help us to ride the storm. Once we are out the EU will continue to focus on helping its member states but that won't include us anymore so we will no longer be supported making it more difficult to ride the storm.

Last time I looked Greece was not exactly having a great time with EU 'help', rumour has it another bail out is going to be needed, Spain & Italy also on the edge.

[jeremyp]

I never claimed 'change in the EU will not affect us', but that it will affect us less.

Which is a naive point of view. Changes to the EU will affect us more severely if we are not in it because there will be nobody standing up for our interests in the debates about change.

You want to a political union with this:-
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/15/turkish-composer-fazil-say-convicted-blasphemhy

No, I want a union that would help things like that stop happening. Before joining the EU, Turkey would have to reform in several ways including allowing freedom of expression.

[~TW~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9La0WGBgwiA

 Vote leave
~TW~

[Ricky Spanish]

Aww fuck.. ~tweedlU~ says leave..

I'm for staying then...

[Ricky Spanish]

But seriously.. What exactly the fuck would happen if we voted to stay or leave.

I'm guessing fuck all.. The banksters and their mates would scratch their heads and find another way to channel their profits in such a way to profit them and fuck the rest of us.

Why do we still have the pound if it wasn't collateral for the damage Gidiot is inflicting? Surely he and his mates will lose out if we cut off their money laundering rackets?

[Ricky Spanish]

Also, a quick wander through this topic shows me that the TTIP question as to why Dodgy Dave and his mates endorse it is sorely lacking.

Why are you comfortable with TTIP steamrolling over small businesses?