The result of the EU referendum:

[Nearly Sane]

Good question Gonnagle, I'm sure better men than me have tried and failed to provide a good answer. It's one of those 'you wouldn't start from here' kinds of question.

The NHS is too big and bureaucratic. Many people who are doing the work know the answers, but no one listens to them. Personally, I think the whole thing needs breaking down into smaller units, and I wouldn't exclude private companies.

If only private companies were as efficient as the reputation
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services

[L.A.]

If only private companies were as efficient as the reputation
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services

I would say that the Royal Society of Medicine have an interest in the status quo, they are not impartial. Most people I know who have worked in the NHS have stories and waste and inefficiency and if you have to be treated in a hospital, you will experience it first hand.

Maybe other countries health systems are as bad or worse, but it would be surprising if  private companies couldn't make some improvements to ours.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Lapsed,

A quick question, what would you suggest to combat the waste and inefficiency?

Gonnagle.

It seems to me that there should be less flash office furniture about. Apparently if you artificially have internal markets you need flash offices to impress people.

I'll hazard this. If you cut out having fancy looking furniture and image and insisted that everybody brought their own sandwiches and the perks limited to a cup of tea and a rich tea you could save billions.

[Nearly Sane]

I would say that the Royal Society of Medicine have an interest in the status quo, they are not impartial. Most people I know who have worked in the NHS have stories and waste and inefficiency and if you have to be treated in a hospital, you will experience it first hand.

Maybe other countries health systems are as bad or worse, but it would be surprising if  private companies couldn't make some improvements to ours.

Anything the size of the NHS will have efficiency issues. Private companies anything like that  size do as well.

[L.A.]

It seems to me that there should be less flash office furniture about. Apparently if you artificially have internal markets you need flash offices to impress people.

I'll hazard this. If you cut out having fancy looking furniture and image and insisted that everybody brought their own sandwiches and the perks limited to a cup of tea and a rich tea you could save billions.

NHS management always seem to treat their own comfort as a very high priority. I'd stick them all in portacabins.

[L.A.]

Anything the size of the NHS will have efficiency issues. Private companies anything like that  size do as well.

If you look back, you'll see that was pretty much the point I was making. Private companies aren't a panacea, I just wouldn't exclude them on dogmatic grounds.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed and Sane,

Thank you, before reading Sanes article link I was thinking, should I change my way of thinking regarding the NHS, old school, hands off the NHS, after reading the article, I am more convinced that privatisation is not the answer, privatisation to me is a scapegoat and as Lapsed suggests, there are  plenty of minds within the NHS who see the waste and inefficiency, change the mindset, now that could be a way forward

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

If you look back, you'll see that was pretty much the point I was making. Private companies aren't a panacea, I just wouldn't exclude them on dogmatic grounds.

the problem with any current solution is the appearance of corruption in the Tory Party

[Nearly Sane]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health

[jakswan]

Only in the short term.

The long term result will be better performing economies all round.

Fingers crossed, the net loss to Britain could be permanent.

[jakswan]

As I explained above, economics is not a zero sum game. Yes the £5,000 is lost to our economy but it goes into an economy that needs it more and the benefits of the stronger economy flow back to Britain. It's a short term loss for a long term gain.

Why does it necessarily flow back to us an not the other 200 countries.

[jakswan]

Jakswan effectively stated that the EU ideology is to raise the wealth of all the member states through free trade. Why is it deluded and laughable to ask him why he is against everybody being a bit richer?

I'm not against everyone being richer, tell me do you think Greeks feel richer currently?

[L.A.]

I'm not against everyone being richer, tell me do you think Greeks feel richer currently?

I think the Greek situation was more due to Greek politicians going on a spending spree as soon as they had the Euro. That's the thing with democracy - you vote in idiots you get problems!

[jeremyp]

Fingers crossed, the net loss to Britain could be permanent.

But very unlikely.

[jeremyp]

Why does it necessarily flow back to us an not the other 200 countries.

It does flow back to other countries too. But that makes them a bit richer and then they buy more stuff off us.

[jeremyp]

I'm not against everyone being richer, tell me do you think Greeks feel richer currently?

Greece is in the position it is because they lied about the state of their economy when they joined the Euro. The Euro is not the EU. The Euro was a colossal mistake, the EU is not.

[L.A.]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health

I treat articles in the Guardian telling me how good the NHS is with the same scepticism as articles in the Mail telling me how bad it is.

The truth is there are good bits and bad bits. We need more good bits!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,

We need more good bits!

Eeerrm!! I am the one on this forum who states the bleedin! obvious, thank you

Gonnagle.

[Ricky Spanish]

My word you don't half talk a load of bollocks jeremy. . do you ever stop and listen to yourself?

[Hope]

My word you don't half talk a load of bollocks jeremy. . do you ever stop and listen to yourself?

He's been taking lessons, Thrud.   

[jeremyp]

My word you don't half talk a load of bollocks jeremy. . do you ever stop and listen to yourself?

Try engaging with the topic instead of dishing out insults.

The article you posted contained egregious errors. Why shouldn't I call it out.

[jakswan]

Greece is in the position it is because they lied about the state of their economy when they joined the Euro. The Euro is not the EU. The Euro was a colossal mistake, the EU is not.

Why was the Euro a mistake, I'm not seeing how why the arguments for the EU don't work for the EURO.

Oh and can you send me all your money,  you'll be richer eventually,  zero sum game and all that.

[Hope]

Why was the Euro a mistake, I'm not seeing how why the arguments for the EU don't work for the EURO.

Oh and can you send me all your money,  you'll be richer eventually,  zero sum game and all that.

Jakswan, the component nations in the EU have never had to had to reach a particular threshold economically to be able to join the Union.  On the other hand, all the Eurozone nations had to match or pass certain economic requirements to join the EU.

The problem was that when all was said and done, only three European nations matched the requirements - Denmark, Germany and the UK (and only one of those economies were planning to join the club).  The parameters had to be changed to allow even France into the club, and in doing so, the other weaker European economies also became eligible to join.

[jeremyp]

Why was the Euro a mistake, I'm not seeing how why the arguments for the EU don't work for the EURO.

The Euro is a currency, the EU is a political and economic organisation. It's ludicrous to suggest that the same arguments would work for both, they are not the same thing.

Oh and can you send me all your money,  you'll be richer eventually,  zero sum game and all that.

If you had no money at all and I had a massive stack of cash, do you think it unreasonable that I should give you some of that cash to get you back on your feet? If not, are you campaigning against paying any tax?

[Shaker]

He's been taking lessons, Thrud.   

From you, evidently.