The result of the EU referendum:

[ProfessorDavey]

Oh and can you send me all your money,  you'll be richer eventually,  zero sum game and all that.

It isn't a zero sum game - support other countries to develop their economies and you create new markets for your own businesses - they get richer and you get richer too.

[jakswan]

The Euro is a currency, the EU is a political and economic organisation union. It's ludicrous to suggest that the same arguments would work for both, they are not the same thing.

The EURO is a currency for a group of countries that necessarily share economics and politics.

If you had no money at all and I had a massive stack of cash, do you think it unreasonable that I should give you some of that cash to get you back on your feet? If not, are you campaigning against paying any tax?

Didn't mention having no money, just following your "logic.

[Jack Knave]

You do realise that this is the fault of Britain's government. It has nothing to do with the EU.

We're talking about privatisation. Though what you say is right the EU's agenda; or I should say their masters the bankers and financial institutions, are the ones who have pushed for this since Neo-Liberalism 3 decades ago. You don't think government's think of things in isolation do you? There are lobby pressures etc., and trends and fashions from the academic world that get these brainless politicians to do and talk crap.

[Jack Knave]

How does it being a monopoly change the argument? Not saying it doesn't change the argument but all we ave from you on it is flat assertions.

You ask a question then contradict it!!! And how can a statement of obvious fact be an assertion?

Yes, of course it is true for major industries, glad you agree.

Then you agree with this bit which means you agree with the first bit which you questioned   

And then you say you glad I agree when my post wasn't even to you 

I do wonder how many screws you need tightening to your failing frame.

[Jack Knave]

Where is the equivalent of the EU in the Middle East or Africa?

I realised after posting that this was an askant response, but my point was that Western trade policy has been bias to profit itself and has only gone to worsen non-Western countries conditions - hence the blowback of the migrant crisis. 

[Jack Knave]

What's that got to do with the point? Greece is where it is because of the EU but because its leaders lied to join the Euro.  And us applying jealous protectionism to jobs that can be better done in Greece isn't going to help them get out of the mess.

Evidence please!

And who is meant by 'us'? All EU members?

[Jack Knave]

Jakswan effectively stated that the EU ideology is to raise the wealth of all the member states through free trade. Why is it deluded and laughable to ask him why he is against everybody being a bit richer?

That's not what you said.

[Jack Knave]

Obviously, if those criteria are not met then there is no case, but I fail to see what the long-term problem would be?

Anyone who has had any dealings with the NHS knows that the service does some things very well. but there are vast amounts of waste and inefficiency, and 'monolithic blocks' like the NHS are not good environments for innovation - and there is a revolution going on in medicine right now!

Private firms are wasteful and inefficient for the services they provide but not for themselves as they £cream off more than the top layer.

The NHS at the moment have to put right what some private medical services mess up on. But because of no accountability and loopholes etc. they get away with it.

[Jack Knave]

Good question Gonnagle, I'm sure better men than me have tried and failed to provide a good answer. It's one of those 'you wouldn't start from here' kinds of question.

The NHS is too big and bureaucratic. Many people who are doing the work know the answers, but no one listens to them. Personally, I think the whole thing needs breaking down into smaller units, and I wouldn't exclude private companies.

Why's that?

[Jack Knave]

It seems to me that there should be less flash office furniture about. Apparently if you artificially have internal markets you need flash offices to impress people.

I'll hazard this. If you cut out having fancy looking furniture and image and insisted that everybody brought their own sandwiches and the perks limited to a cup of tea and a rich tea you could save billions.

All this relates to the endless back offices' consultants and middle managers which are not needed. What we need is to go back to things being run by, or more control allocated to, the frontline staff, ward matrons etc.......

[Jack Knave]

If you look back, you'll see that was pretty much the point I was making. Private companies aren't a panacea, I just wouldn't exclude them on dogmatic grounds.

But the Tories are doing that but the opposite. On ideological grounds they are taking us to full privatisation of the NHS; US style, which costs 3 times as much as the NHS per head. Compared to other countries the NHS is pretty cost effective and value for money - yes it needs improvements etc. but not privatisation.

[Jack Knave]

It does flow back to other countries too. But that makes them a bit richer and then they buy more stuff off us.

Not if we have no industries because of your (EU) stupid scheme to close them down because of your myopic outlook that, " They make it cheaper, and they won't ever, ever hike up the prices once they get a monopoly on the situation." 

[Jack Knave]

Greece is in the position it is because they lied about the state of their economy when they joined the Euro. The Euro is not the EU. The Euro was a colossal mistake, the EU is not.

Now I do know you're ill. Come on Jeremy the Euro is a roaring success!!! Come on old boy get that delusional spirit back.

By the way the Greeks didn't lie about the state of their economy Brussels knew exactly what was going on. They effectively got in because of the EU's ideology and for not making the Euro look like a special club for the richer members.

[Jack Knave]

Why was the Euro a mistake, I'm not seeing how why the arguments for the EU don't work for the EURO.

Oh and can you send me all your money,  you'll be richer eventually,  zero sum game and all that.

The Euro is the present apotheosis of the EU, so yes they are basically one and the same.

Hey! I want half of JP's wealth. He's probably got some EU fund or pension and backhanders so he'll be rich.

[Jack Knave]

The Euro is a currency, the EU is a political and economic organisation. It's ludicrous to suggest that the same arguments would work for both, they are not the same thing.

They are both outlined in the same treaty. They are suppose to go together hand in glove.

If you had no money at all and I had a massive stack of cash, do you think it unreasonable that I should give you some of that cash to get you back on your feet? If not, are you campaigning against paying any tax?

Would that be a loan? You did say give which implies not.

If this is one of the principles of the EU then go tell it to Germany! They didn't give to Greece but laid them up with more debt, debt they can never pay back because they don't have the means to. And only 5% of this loan actually goes to the Greeks the rest does a lap of honour to the banks. Germany showed its true colours; the 4th Reich is blossoming well, and it is the colours of red in tooth and claw; dog eat dog; the true nature of man, of tribal loyalties and adherences to a god of ideology to the nth degree.

I'm afraid, Jeremy, your high ideals and the EU are poles apart.

[floo]

My daughter sent me this one, I hope it makes you smile.


The British Penny

Just in time to consider before the referendum.

The British Penny

European Union Directive No. 456179

In order to bring about further integration with the single European currency, the Euro, all citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland must be made aware that the phrase "Spending a Penny" is not to be used after 30 April 2016.

From this date onwards, the correct term will be:"Euronating".

It is hoped that this will be a great-relief to everyone. If you have any questions, just give us a tinkle.

   

[jakswan]

With Remain having thrown everything into their campaign and the polls still moving towards Leave its looking hopeful!

[floo]

It will be a sad day for the UK if we do leave the EU, I fear we would live to regret that action.

[jeremyp]

The EURO is a currency for a group of countries that necessarily share economics and politics.

Therein lies the problem with the Euro. The countries that use it do not share politics or economics.

Didn't mention having no money, just following your "logic.

No you weren't, you were constructing a straw man from my logic. However, we do all give money to other people for various reasons, as taxes, as charity, in exchange for goods and services. Except maybe in the case of charity, we do this in the expectation that we will gain something in return.

[jeremyp]

We're talking about privatisation.

Of the NHS.

Though what you say is right the EU's agenda;

That's a lie. It does seem to be on the current UK government's agenda though and they would still be in charge after we leave the EU.

If you think you can save the NHS by leaving the EU, please think again. In fact, the sudden loss of access to staff from Eastern Europe would probably hasten its collapse.

[jeremyp]

You ask a question then contradict it!!! And how can a statement of obvious fact be an assertion?

If it's obvious it should be pretty easy for you to explain why.

By the way , I didn't contradict myself, I asked a question and then said that I wasn't assuming a particular answer.

I do wonder how many screws you need tightening to your failing frame.

Always the insults with you. I guess you must be out of your depth.

[jakswan]

Therein lies the problem with the Euro. The countries that use it do not share politics or economics.

Bingo, therein lies the problem with EU, in your own words "the EU is a political and economic organisation" of countries that "do not share politics or economics".

No you weren't, you were constructing a straw man from my logic. However, we do all give money to other people for various reasons, as taxes, as charity, in exchange for goods and services. Except maybe in the case of charity, we do this in the expectation that we will gain something in return.

I don't think so, you suggested that jobs\money going abroad was great because it makes other countries richer which will allow us eventually to become richer. I don't see, using this principle, why you don't think if you give me all your money why you won't be richer, or is it actually bollocks.

[SusanDoris]

It will be a sad day for the UK if we do leave the EU, I fear we would live to regret that action.

Very, very much agree. This morning I was in town. Two people I know spoke to me (people announce their names to me). The subject quickly went to the referendum. I expressed my very strongly held view that we should REMAIN IN[/I  and the woman said ,' Oh, I am pleased to hear you say that.' She went on to say that she didn't like to express her views in case she offended, but I think I persuaded her to be more assertive!! I told her about the local meeting next week and I think she will try to be there. The second person, a man who used to chair a local discussion group, was definitely for leaving, but he knew he wouldn't get away with that when I was around! His pet peeve was immigration, but I pointed out that he should look at the wider picture, particularly the lack of world wars started in europe.

(This man is the one who would ask me whenever we passed at the Leisure Centre or in town , i.e. after I had left the group, when I was coming back because I livened things up - in the best possible way of course! )

I next went into Boots and asked the girl what she was going to vote and she was for remaining in, so that was good.


Modified to correct the mistake - I shudder to think of the mayhem which would result
from leaving.

[jakswan]

The subject quickly went to the referendum. I expressed my very strongly held view that we should leave

Well done!

[SusanDoris]

Well done!

HORRORS!  If I really did leave out the word NOT, .... Anyway I'll modify if I can.

We must STAy IN!!!