The result of the EU referendum:

[jakswan]

What do you mean by "would the EURO be safer"? and why do you keep shouting?

Evasion and whataboutery.

Would the Euro currency be safer if the UK joined?

[jakswan]

I disagree because I see no meaningful loss of freedom by being a member of the EU, which is at least as democratic as our UK government, arguable rather more so.

I disagree because I do see meaningful loss of freedom by being a member of the EU, which is not as democratic as our UK government, arguable rather less so.

The new EU regulations on E-Cigs will impact me, how can I get the law revoked?

[ProfessorDavey]

The new EU regulations on E-Cigs will impact me, how can I get the law revoked?

In what way does this affect you.

Can you confirm that this EU directive was not approved by the UK government through the council of ministers, nor by elected MEPs including those from the UK, nor implemented into UK law by the UK government and UK parliament.

And of course if you want to change it you can do so via the normal democratic channels, so to lobby the UK government to press for change, to vote for MPs in the UK government who will change the regulations, to vote in MEPs who will also change the regulations.

You seem to be confusing 'freedom' with always getting your own way, being allowed to do exactly what you want and liking every law or regulation passed. Within any democratic system there will be times when governments (with democratic mandate) bring in laws that you don't like and oppose very strongly. And that happens at every level, just as often at the UK level as at the EU level. I don't think that really means curtailment of 'freedom' unless you are a pure libertarian, i.e. someone who thinks that every individual must be allowed to do exactly as they wish without restriction from any government or law - but I don't think you do, and if you were a pure libertarian the UK government would be far more problematic to you than the EU as the vat, vast majority of the legislation that restricts our pure freedom to do exactly as we like emanates from the UK government, not from the EU.

[jakswan]

In what way does this affect you.

I vape, makes Eliquid more expensive, means I have to use ineffective system.

Can you confirm that this EU directive was not approved by the UK government through the council of ministers, nor by elected MEPs including those from the UK, nor implemented into UK law by the UK government and UK parliament.

Not sure even if I could find out the system is so bureaucratic I have zero confidence anything I do will make the slightest difference.

You seem to be confusing 'freedom' with always getting your own way,

No I just want to feel that my vote actually matters so that politicians have to listen to my point of view if they want my vote.

[ProfessorDavey]

I vape, makes Eliquid more expensive, means I have to use ineffective system.

So just to check (as I have no idea, neither smoking nor vaping) when the The Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 came into force last Friday you had to pay more for your fix than you had, for example last Monday. It may well be true, but I'm just checking. And even if true this why is this necessarily a bad thing or necessarily the fault of the EU (given that the regulations have the approval of the UK government at every stage). Year after year my glass of wine goes up because of changes to the duty applied by the UK government, why is that any different?

Not sure even if I could find out the system is so bureaucratic I have zero confidence anything I do will make the slightest difference.

The regulations (see here):

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/507/pdfs/uksi_20160507_en.pdf

were drafted by the UK government and laid before the UK parliament who approved them. The early EU regulations were approved both by the Council of ministers (including the UK government) and the European parliament (including UK MEPs).

Where exactly is there a problem from a freedom/democracy point of view - there isn't. Overall seems eminently sensible legislation as it regulates an are (e-cigarettes) which have appeared pretty recently and which were pretty unregulated despite many containing significant levels of nicotine. Also seems eminently sensible to broadly harmonise regulation across the EU, which helps consumers and producers alike.

 

No I just want to feel that my vote actually matters so that politicians have to listen to my point of view if they want my vote.

Not unreasonable - but why is this somehow a problem in the EU but not in the UK parliament - I have a say in a greater proportion of MEPs than UK MPs and I now live in a pretty safe Tory seat in the UK - my MP doesn't need to give a damn what I think as my vote is pretty irrelevant to her in our first past the post system.

Don't forget that in the UK most people live in safe seats where their vote is unlikely to make a difference. Plus few MPs win the support of a majority of their electorate, and we currently have a government which received the support of under 24% of the electorate, just 36% of those that voted, yet gained 51% of the seats and 100% of the power.

So I agree that democratic deficit is an issue, but if you are actually concerned about democratic deficit I suggest you start by looking rather closer to home than the EU.

[jakswan]

So just to check (as I have no idea, neither smoking nor vaping) when the The Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 came into force last Friday you had to pay more for your fix than you had, for example last Monday. It may well be true, but I'm just checking. And even if true this why is this necessarily a bad thing or necessarily the fault of the EU (given that the regulations have the approval of the UK government at every stage). Year after year my glass of wine goes up because of changes to the duty applied by the UK government, why is that any different?

Smokers elect to vape is a good thing? The new regs limit the sale of eliquid to 10ml, makes it more expansive as you will be unable to buy 30ml. However its a side issue for this thread.

Don't forget that in the UK most people live in safe seats where their vote is unlikely to make a difference. Plus few MPs win the support of a majority of their electorate, and we currently have a government which received the support of under 24% of the electorate, just 36% of those that voted, yet gained 51% of the seats and 100% of the power.

So I agree that democratic deficit is an issue, but if you are actually concerned about democratic deficit I suggest you start by looking rather closer to home than the EU.

Democracy is not quite as simple as that, politicians are held to account in this country not just by the ballot box but by the media. Sharing a common language / culture its much easier to raise issues by getting in touch with press as well as contacting special interest groups and MPs. Who all share the same culture.

My only option for the EU is get in touch with a powerless MEP.

[ProfessorDavey]

Democracy is not quite as simple as that, politicians are held to account in this country not just by the ballot box but by the media. Sharing a common language / culture its much easier to raise issues by getting in touch with press as well as contacting special interest groups and MPs. Who all share the same culture.

You can do just the same for the EU, and indeed many do. You will undoubtedly be pushing against an open door with much of the UK 'popular' press if you want to take issue with the EU.

My only option for the EU is get in touch with a powerless MEP.

Why is your MEP (or rather MEPs - I'll come back to that in moment) any more 'powerless' than you MP - they aren't.

But you have a number of MEPs, with the election being regional, so it is likely that you will be able to find one whose views align with your and is happy to take up your issue. With only one MP, if they don't agree you are extremely unlikely to have them fighting your corner (as they won't agree) - the sum total of your efforts to get them to champion your cause will be a brief 'standard' letter explaining that while they respect your views they frankly don't give a damn (written in rather more parliamentary language).

[jeremyp]

Evasion and whataboutery.

Says the man who is trying to divert a discussion on our EU membership to being about our potential Euro membership,

Would the Euro currency be safer if the UK joined?

I had figured out the "if the UK joined" part. I was asking what you meant by "safer".

[jeremyp]

Smokers elect to vape is a good thing? The new regs limit the sale of eliquid to 10ml, makes it more expansive as you will be unable to buy 30ml. However its a side issue for this thread.

No it isn't. It's the first answer anybody has given to the question I asked earlier about finding some aspect in which the EU has affected your life. Having just read up on the new regulation, it really does seem overly heavy handed.

However, do not be under any illusion that the regulation will go away if we leave the EU. The law that the UK parliament enacted to enforce the directive will still have force and will need to be repealed. I think you have a snowball's chance in hell of making that happen: the government seems to be very down on any kind of recreational drug (except the PM's drug of choice - alcohol - of course) as evidenced by the new ban on "legal" highs which they enacted without any help from the EU.

[ProfessorDavey]

No it isn't. It's the first answer anybody has given to the question I asked earlier about finding some aspect in which the EU has affected your life. Having just read up on the new regulation, it really does seem overly heavy handed.

However, do not be under any illusion that the regulation will go away if we leave the EU. The law that the UK parliament enacted to enforce the directive will still have force and will need to be repealed. I think you have a snowball's chance in hell of making that happen: the government seems to be very down on any kind of recreational drug (except the PM's drug of choice - alcohol - of course) as evidenced by the new ban on "legal" highs which they enacted without any help from the EU.

And not only did the UK parliament approve the regulations drafted by the UK government that imposes the changes into UK law, but the UK government approved the regulations at EU level and the elected MEPs including those from the UK approved it in the EU parliament.

So it has UK approval written all over it, and JP is correct it isn't going away and almost certainly would have been introduced even if we weren't in the EU.

On whether it is overly draconian - well I'm not sure it is. Don't forget this only applies to vaping products that include nicotine, in other words something that is addictive and damaging to health. So it isn't the case of 'cigarettes dangerous, nicotine containing vaping safe' but 'cigarettes dangerous, nicotine containing vaping slightly less dangerous'. So although we might prefer people to be using nicotine vaping to cigarettes, it would be better if people didn't smoke at all or vaped with nicotine-free products (which are except from the law).

I am pretty concerned about the current (but presumably now changing) marketing of nicotine vaping as cool and glamorous, the sort of thing we used to see for cigarettes back in the 1970s and earlier. Likewise the packaging. And also I think the regulations ensure higher quality standards on the products which will help improve safety. SO all in all I have no problem with regulations which provide a framework which sees vaping as perhaps preferably to smoking but recognises that it isn't anything like as preferable as getting off nicotine dependency altogether.

[SusanDoris]

Odds now shifted to 6/1 on for Remain

That means that to win £1 you have to put down £6 doesn't it? If that is right - I'm not a betting person!! - then I'll give a little cheer.

That doesn't sound right... hmmm
 Just confirm, please, that these odds mean most people are in favour of remaining IN the eU.

[jeremyp]

 Just confirm, please, that these odds mean most people are in favour of remaining IN the eU.

All it means is that most people who are betting think that the result will be for Remain.

[SusanDoris]

Thank you, JeremyP. That is encouraging.

I hope a large number of young people register to vote in time.

[Jack Knave]

Boris Johnson did - and Napoleon.

I have to laugh at all the Brexiters who came out claiming it was a historian's analysis. What Boris said was

That's not a historian's analysis, it's a cheap sound bite.

But he didn't say the EU was the same as the Nazis only that they are trying to unify Europe as did many others, and this is historically correct.

[jakswan]

You can do just the same for the EU, and indeed many do. You will undoubtedly be pushing against an open door with much of the UK 'popular' press if you want to take issue with the EU.
Why is your MEP (or rather MEPs - I'll come back to that in moment) any more 'powerless' than you MP - they aren't.

MY local MP potentially is directly tied to Govt or Shadow Govt. which can directly propose new legislation and have enough power to get it through. An MEP can't come close.

[ProfessorDavey]

MY local MP potentially is directly tied to Govt or Shadow Govt. which can directly propose new legislation and have enough power to get it through. An MEP can't come close.

Although the European commission formally introduces legislation, that legislation is usually at the behest of the Council (i.e. our government and that of other member states) or suggested by MEPs in the European parliament (i.e. our elected MEPs). The process is little different to our UK process, where legislation is drafted by the civil service at the behest of government.

So I am struggling with your view. Every Christmas I receive a card from one MP (one of the rare surviving LibDems) and one MEP (a Labour member in my region) - can you explain to me why the former has more influence than the latter, beyond the obvious fact that there are 751 MEPs and 650 MPs.

And this whole line of thinking is deeply muddled in a schrodinger's cat kind of manner - so the EU is simultaneously toothless, while completely running our lives. It can't be both.

[jakswan]

Although the European commission formally introduces legislation, that legislation is usually at the behest of the Council (i.e. our government and that of other member states) or suggested by MEPs in the European parliament (i.e. our elected MEPs).

Other member states and MEPS outside of the UK and not accountable to UK electorate in anyway. You could argue that a politician standing out of my area is not accountable to me however due to the party system there is a form of accountability.

Also you haven't addressed the shared culture aspect, I'll give you an example. The Google Tax saga John McDonnell was advocating that a UK sales tax be introduced which was a nonsense because Google doesn't pay tax here because the sales are in Ireland and a UK sales tax would have zero impact. Had he carried on with this nonsense I could approach the media and have asked them to challenge John on this flawed policy.

The process is little different to our UK process, where legislation is drafted by the civil service at the behest of government.

So I am struggling with your view. Every Christmas I receive a card from one MP (one of the rare surviving LibDems) and one MEP (a Labour member in my region) - can you explain to me why the former has more influence than the latter, beyond the obvious fact that there are 751 MEPs and 650 MPs.

And this whole line of thinking is deeply muddled in a schrodinger's cat kind of manner - so the EU is simultaneously toothless, while completely running our lives. It can't be both.

Another strawman from a Bremainer.

[Rhiannon]

My hairdresser was just asking me how I'm voting - she's got no clue and is asking all her clients for ideas. Lots of Brexiters around here apparently. 

[Aruntraveller]

I've just spent an interesting hour on the vote leave thread on Facebook I give you this little sample of the words that pass for reasoning on there go like:

Stupid cunt, you really havent red up on this have you. China will h ve us a trade deal, they have even daid so. Im glad the last world war was in the 30s coz cunts like you dont have a spine and you are an embarrassment to this country and the men and women that have fought and died for this country. If I ever see you in the street I will teach ou the meaning of being britsihsh you patheic embarrassment of a cunt

I apologise for the language but it does give you a full flavour of what passes for thinking in some Brexiters minds. I had mildly questioned our ability to get good trade agreements on our own and received the above well reasoned response!

[Rhiannon]

It's all emotion (generally unpleasant) and no logic or reasoning.

[Aruntraveller]

It's all emotion (generally unpleasant) and no logic or reasoning.

YEs - I hadn't realised how unpleasant though It makes our little board seem full of jolly nice refined folks 

[jakswan]

My hairdresser was just asking me how I'm voting - she's got no clue and is asking all her clients for ideas. Lots of Brexiters around here apparently.

Just been out with a few friends, lifelong lefties, hate Cameron scare stories, think Corbyn is a nice man but a bit of a joke, Brexit all the way. Meanwhile sister doesn't know, might not actually vote at a push for remain.

Time to bet methinks!

[jeremyp]

Other member states and MEPS outside of the UK and not accountable to UK electorate in anyway. You could argue that a politician standing out of my area is not accountable to me however due to the party system there is a form of accountability.

The MP for Reading West is not accountable to the electorate in Brighton East in any way. Your point?

Also you haven't addressed the shared culture aspect, I'll give you an example. The Google Tax saga John McDonnell was advocating that a UK sales tax be introduced which was a nonsense because Google doesn't pay tax here because the sales are in Ireland and a UK sales tax would have zero impact. Had he carried on with this nonsense I could approach the media and have asked them to challenge John on this flawed policy.

Google will always be able to avoid taxes in countries with high tax by basing their operations outside that country. The only way to stop that is cooperation between countries and coordinated taxes. Unfortunately,cit seems you leavers don't want coordinated taxes: Jack is screaming because the EU forces us to set VAT in the range 5% to infinity.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just been out with a few friends, lifelong lefties, hate Cameron scare stories, think Corbyn is a nice man but a bit of a joke, Brexit all the way. Meanwhile sister doesn't know, might not actually vote at a push for remain.

Time to bet methinks!

As long as you've got your checkbook ready for a bit of charitable giving for the workhouses for those made unemployed by Brexit and cheap third world labour Jak.

[Shaker]

As long as you've got your checkbook ready for a bit of charitable giving for the workhouses for those made unemployed by Brexit and cheap third world labour Jak.

What will Brexit do next? Give everyone piles and halitosis? Guarantee rain and 5°C temperatures on every bank holiday? Massacre the firstborn and bring on plagues of locusts?