The result of the EU referendum:

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What will Brexit do next? Give everyone piles and halitosis? Guarantee rain and 5°C temperatures on every bank holiday? Massacre the firstborn and bring on plagues of locusts?

Boris reminds me of the half metamorphosed alien in Carpenter's The Thing
.......................so we are doomed.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What will Brexit do next? Give everyone piles and halitosis?

.............too late for you then?

[ProfessorDavey]

MEPS outside of the UK and not accountable to UK electorate in anyway.

What a ridiculous statement.

The European parliament is accountable to the EU electorate, the UK parliament is accountable to the UK electorate. The clue is in the name.

So to suggest that the European parliament is somehow illegitimate because not all MEPs are accountable to the UK electorate is the equivalent of arguing that the UK parliament is somehow illegitimate because not all MPs are accountable to the Scottish electorate, or the London electorate etc.

And the reality is that not a single one of the 650 MPs in Westminster is accountable to the entire UK electorate - they are only accountable to the electorate in their individual constituencies. So only one of 650 MPs is directly accountable to me as a voter - I have absolutely no electoral democratic influence on the other 649. So my influence extends to just 0.15% of MPs.

Interestingly a rather greater proportion of MEPs (7 out of 751) or 0.93% are directly accountable to me and to whom I have a electoral democratic influence in their selection.

[jeremyp]

And the reality is that not a single one of the 650 MPs in Westminster is accountable to the UK electorate - they are only accountable to the electorate in their individual constituencies.

And the members of the House of Lords aren't accountable to anybody, except maybe the Queen.

[ProfessorDavey]

And the members of the House of Lords aren't accountable to anybody, except maybe the Queen.

That's right.

So of all the governance levels where I have a vote - District Council, County Council, UK Parliament and European Parliament the one where I have the least influence as a voter is the UK Parliament where I my vote can only directly influence one member of that parliament out of a total of 1452 members of the UK Parliament - and indeed none of the UK electorate has direct influence over 802 of those members.

[floo]

We have a postal vote, the form should arrive by the end of next week. We will both tick the remain box and put it straight in the post, end of!

[ProfessorDavey]

We have a postal vote, the form should arrive by the end of next week. We will both tick the remain box and put it straight in the post, end of!

Good - go for it.

[jakswan]

What a ridiculous statement.

The European parliament is accountable to the EU electorate, the UK parliament is accountable to the UK electorate. The clue is in the name.

So to suggest that the European parliament is somehow illegitimate because not all MEPs are accountable to the UK electorate is the equivalent of arguing that the UK parliament is somehow illegitimate because not all MPs are accountable to the Scottish electorate, or the London electorate etc.

And the reality is that not a single one of the 650 MPs in Westminster is accountable to the entire UK electorate - they are only accountable to the electorate in their individual constituencies. So only one of 650 MPs is directly accountable to me as a voter - I have absolutely no electoral democratic influence on the other 649. So my influence extends to just 0.15% of MPs.

Interestingly a rather greater proportion of MEPs (7 out of 751) or 0.93% are directly accountable to me and to whom I have a electoral democratic influence in their selection.

I can see we're going to need to dumb this down for you. You seem to have a ridiculously simple view of how democracy actually works.

Lets take TTIP, lets say I'm dead set against it, as a citizen I can attempt to apply pressure to the government to not proceed with this policy. I can vote differently, I can try to change my local MP (who'll bring a voting block with him/her if they are a member of a big party), I can use our culture and request interviewers in the media put this on the agenda, plus lots of other things.

Now I know the US will have a view and certainly the giant US corporations are slavering at the prospect but that would be the same for a UK/US deal.

However the government is also going to be coming under pressure in the other direction from the EU, Germany / France, EU Council, possibly 27 other states who I'm unable to influence in any meaningful way whatsoever.

The EU pressure negates mine, democracy is undermined.

The EU could be reformed to be more democratic but because it doesn't share a culture it will always be a poor imitation.

Also Davey have you backtracked on 'we;ll be poorer if we leave'? Heard Andrew Neil earlier state to a Bremainer every single report says eventually we'll be richer than we are now if we leave, the point was conceded by the Bremainer.

[ProfessorDavey]

Lets take TTIP, lets say I'm dead set against it, as a citizen I can attempt to apply pressure to the government to not proceed with this policy.

The TTIP cannot be approved without the specific authority of all EU member state governments - so if you don't like it you can put pressure on the UK government and if that is sufficient for the UK government to decide not to support the TTIP then it won't happen. The situation would be exactly the same were the UK to be outside the EU and negotiating a bilateral trade agreement so there is no difference in the result (or otherwise) of pressure you may be able to bring to bear.

Of course were the UK to be negotiating on its own and given the imbalance in economic power between the USA and the UK (unlike the USA and the EU) we'd be offered a son of TTIP, with less favourable conditions for the UK and more for the USA. So if you don't like the TTIP you sure as hell aren't going to like a USA/UK bilateral deal.

Also Davey have you backtracked on 'we;ll be poorer if we leave'? Heard Andrew Neil earlier state to a Bremainer every single report says eventually we'll be richer than we are now if we leave, the point was conceded by the Bremainer.

I have said all along that we would be poorer if we leave compared to if we stay - that remains my view because it is the view taken by every credible independent economic organisation.

There is a credible argument (consistent with a number of the reports from those credible independent economic organisations) that we would be worse off in real terms, in other words that we'd see negative growth in the short term.

That is my view, backed up by experts. Can you provide me (for the umpteenth time of asking) with any credible independent economic organisation that considers that we will be better off if we leave compared to staying.

[jeremyp]

Also Davey have you backtracked on 'we;ll be poorer if we leave'? Heard Andrew Neil earlier state to a Bremainer every single report says eventually we'll be richer than we are now if we leave, the point was conceded by the Bremainer.

You have a choice of a 5% pay rise or a 10% pay rise. Also, if you accept the 5% pay rise, the neighbours will get really pissed off.

Which do you take?

[jakswan]

The TTIP cannot be approved without the specific authority of all EU member state governments - so if you don't like it you can put pressure on the UK government and if that is sufficient for the UK government to decide not to support the TTIP then it won't happen. The situation would be exactly the same were the UK to be outside the EU and negotiating a bilateral trade agreement so there is no difference in the result (or otherwise) of pressure you may be able to bring to bear.

If the other 27 member states want TTIP there will be pressure from them on our government to adopt it, this negates any pressure I can apply.

Of course were the UK to be negotiating on its own and given the imbalance in economic power between the USA and the UK (unlike the USA and the EU) we'd be offered a son of TTIP, with less favourable conditions for the UK and more for the USA. So if you don't like the TTIP you sure as hell aren't going to like a USA/UK bilateral deal.

However the UK government will not have any pressure from EU countries to accept so it will be a more democratic decision.

I have said all along that we would be poorer if we leave compared to if we stay - that remains my view because it is the view taken by every credible independent economic organisation.

You did claim earlier in thread we would be poorer I'm glad you have backtracked from that.

There is a credible argument (consistent with a number of the reports from those credible independent economic organisations) that we would be worse off in real terms, in other words that we'd see negative growth in the short term.

Actually the latest propaganda from the Treasury made a few errors in this short term negative growth forecast and even then it was predicted to be 0.5% over two quarters, tiny compared to minus 6% from 2008 crash. A cheap price for democracy even if it were credible, which it isn't.

That is my view, backed up by experts. Can you provide me (for the umpteenth time of asking) with any credible independent economic organisation that considers that we will be better off if we leave compared to staying.

My view is if we leave the EU will be richer than we are now, all of your credible reports support that view.

[Jack Knave]

I've just spent an interesting hour on the vote leave thread on Facebook I give you this little sample of the words that pass for reasoning on there go like:

I apologise for the language but it does give you a full flavour of what passes for thinking in some Brexiters minds. I had mildly questioned our ability to get good trade agreements on our own and received the above well reasoned response!

You are far from being mild, Trenty Boy. I know, I've had to deal with your onslaughts. Can you prove to us that you aren't a c***?

We don't need trade deals necessarily we can go by WTO rulings.

[Jack Knave]

Google will always be able to avoid taxes in countries with high tax by basing their operations outside that country. The only way to stop that is cooperation between countries and coordinated taxes.

And we can do that outside the EU i.e. we don't need to be part of a political union to do that - and it would have to be globally as well.

Unfortunately,cit seems you leavers don't want coordinated taxes: Jack is screaming because the EU forces us to set VAT in the range 5% to infinity.

No I'm not screaming - only when the pain gets too much. Lying again I see Jeremy. And the thing about VAT etc. is about controlling it ourselves instead of being told what to do by an authoritarian regime.

[Jack Knave]

What will Brexit do next? Give everyone piles and halitosis? Guarantee rain and 5°C temperatures on every bank holiday? Massacre the firstborn and bring on plagues of locusts?

According to Cameron even worst than that, WWIII and the collapse of our pensions...

[ProfessorDavey]

You have a choice of a 5% pay rise or a 10% pay rise. Also, if you accept the 5% pay rise, the neighbours will get really pissed off.

Which do you take?

And don't forget that if you take the 5% rise one of the consequences will be higher levels of inflation so the differential will be even greater in real terms.

[jeremyp]

And we can do that outside the EU i.e. we don't need to be part of a political union to do that - and it would have to be globally as well.
No I'm not screaming - only when the pain gets too much. Lying again I see Jeremy. And the thing about VAT etc. is about controlling it ourselves instead of being told what to do by an authoritarian regime.

Screaming again, Jack.

We have VAT rates varying between 0% and 20% depending on the goods in question, so how is the EU controlling our VAT rates?

Also, if we are going to make the likes of Google from pay more tax, we will have to enter into agreements with other countries about what tax to charge them, so make up your mind as to whether you want countries to be in complete control of their taxes or Google to pay more tax, because you can't have both.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This referendum vote for Jobs, employment rights, wages and pensions.

Still waiting for figures on these from Brexit.

[Jack Knave]

Screaming again, Jack.

We have VAT rates varying between 0% and 20% depending on the goods in question, so how is the EU controlling our VAT rates?

Also, if we are going to make the likes of Google from pay more tax, we will have to enter into agreements with other countries about what tax to charge them, so make up your mind as to whether you want countries to be in complete control of their taxes or Google to pay more tax, because you can't have both.

Y o u   n e e d    t o    t u r n   d o w n   y o u r   h e a r i n g   a i d   d o w n   o l d   m a n!!!

Am only whispering

I've explained the first bit to you twice.

I never mentioned the word 'complete', which makes your statement a straw man.

[Jack Knave]

This referendum vote for Jobs, employment rights, wages and pensions.

Still waiting for figures on these from Brexit.

Vlad, do you really want to live in the USSR 2.0? Or if not you your children's children? This is about the future, not some short term blip.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad, do you really want to live in the USSR 2.0? Or if not you your children's children? This is about the future, not some short term blip.

I want them to live under a government which is upfront and provides the figures. For the fourth time of asking please provide them.

The only figures I have so far are from the millionaire Arron Banks and they are based on an average wage of 45,000.

Will the government pay the mortgages and rents of those made unemployed by Brexit or not?

Banks likens those who will lose their jobs to people fighting in the war,
Will the brexit government house them and job them like after the second world war.......or call them loafing spongers like after the first war?

Post war welfare state or the so called land fit for heroes which turned out to be nothing of the sort. What shall it be Jack.......what shall it be?
 

[jeremyp]

I've explained the first bit to you twice.

No. You have asserted that the EU control our VAT rates twice without presenting a shred of evidence that they do and in the face of patient explanations of why you are wrong that a five year old could understand.

I never mentioned the word 'complete', which makes your statement a straw man.

So you don't mind if countries aren't in complete control of their taxes. Fine, the EU's rules on VAT shouldn't be a problem  for you then.

[Aruntraveller]

You are far from being mild, Trenty Boy. I know, I've had to deal with your onslaughts. Can you prove to us that you aren't a c***?

We don't need trade deals necessarily we can go by WTO rulings.

What onslaughts exactly? I know we disagree on the EU - but I don't recall being either foul mouthed to you or offensive.
In fact have I ever used language in that way and of that offensive nature?

[jakswan]

You have a choice of a 5% pay rise or a 10% pay rise. Also, if you accept the 5% pay rise, the neighbours will get really pissed off.

Which do you take?

If the 10 percent comes with strings attached like, my neighbours will be deciding how i live my life not my family, other members of my family will have to face a pay cut, I have to pay to be a member of a club i can't leave, etc. I'd be happy with 5 percent.

The Bremainers are obsessed with money, more important things in life than money.

[Rhiannon]

That's easy to say if the hit will still leave you with enough to put food on the table for your family. Because of my circumstances it's entirely possible that I won't and there are millions like me.

[jakswan]

That's easy to say if the hit will still leave you with enough to put food on the table for your family. Because of my circumstances it's entirely possible that I won't and there are millions like me.

All of Daveys "credible sources" support the view we'll be richer than we are now if we leave.

See past the spin, propaganda and scare stories.