Author Topic: The result of the EU referendum:  (Read 257326 times)

jeremyp

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1450 on: June 01, 2016, 05:42:37 PM »
I saw Sean Lock make a joke saying that the vote should be open to 16 year olds as it is their future. Also, that people over 70 should NOT be allowed to vote as its not their future.
I'm not sure I agree about the 16 year old thing because, if we trusted 16 year olds to vote sensibly, we'd let them vote in ordinary general elections.

However, there is definitely a case not to let people older than a certain age vote because there are no consequences for them. Having said that, many of these people will have children, grand children and great grandchildren. Why not let them vote for what they think is in their descendants' best interest?
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wigginhall

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1451 on: June 01, 2016, 05:44:29 PM »
Yes, a point system is definitely being sold as a barrier by some Leave campaigners; of course, it could be used as one, but the Australian stats show how it's not there, or at any rate, it allows higher migration than here.
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SusanDoris

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1452 on: June 01, 2016, 06:07:19 PM »
Having heard various radio and read message board opinions about remain or leave, I find it worring to hear (as I think I mentioned earlier in this thread) the very minor - I wonder whether to use the word 'trivial' - points raised by those who want to leave. They seem to focus on one aspect which they personally find a nuisance and do not appear to consider the longer term future, or to take into account the past,  or the connection that we have, and will increasingly need to have, with the rest of the world.

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jeremyp

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1453 on: June 01, 2016, 06:19:00 PM »
Having heard various radio and read message board opinions about remain or leave, I find it worring to hear (as I think I mentioned earlier in this thread) the very minor - I wonder whether to use the word 'trivial' - points raised by those who want to leave. They seem to focus on one aspect which they personally find a nuisance and do not appear to consider the longer term future, or to take into account the past,  or the connection that we have, and will increasingly need to have, with the rest of the world.
Exactly. And more often than not, the alleged nuisance turns out to be the fault of the British government when you finally look into it.
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L.A.

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1454 on: June 01, 2016, 06:31:44 PM »
I am not particularly worried, but from the people I speak to that will vote leave, this is a major point to them.

This topic could swing it, especially perhaps with older people.

I saw Sean Lock make a joke saying that the vote should be open to 16 year olds as it is their future. Also, that people over 70 should NOT be allowed to vote as its not their future.

I can't for the life of me understand why older people would vote to leave. Even if the long-term prospects of Brexit weren't disastrous, the short-term certainly would be. I suspect that my generation would all be dead before things things started to improve.
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Rhiannon

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1455 on: June 01, 2016, 07:27:31 PM »
If what I hear locally is right, no migrant workers, no carrot harvest.

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1456 on: June 01, 2016, 07:33:22 PM »
By leaving the EU we will simply be centralising yet more power at Westminster - and we already have one of the most centralised governance of advanced democracies. We will lose the checks and balances that are afforded by being a member of the EU and that worries me greatly. Particularly as we have a system of 'democracy' where one party can gain 100% of the power with just 37% of the votes cast and 25% support of the electorate. And we have no democratically accountable second chamber.
The EU has 100% of the power with no mandate, zilch, Zero%!!!

And you're stupid enough to want to give them even more power...

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1457 on: June 01, 2016, 07:40:03 PM »
We are a nation of utter dipsticks.
That made me chuckle. It's not your usual fair Rhi.

I think that is pretty much true of many nations, but all this political correctness has addled peoples' minds; even the police as in Rotherham.

Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1458 on: June 01, 2016, 07:50:50 PM »
Yes, the kids and I will enjoy that while eating our soup made out of weeds and old trainers.
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Jack Knave

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1459 on: June 01, 2016, 07:57:16 PM »
Bad news for anybody not exporting.
We need more exports because our current account deficit is too high. So drop pound drop...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 07:59:35 PM by Jack Knave »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1460 on: June 01, 2016, 10:54:10 PM »
We don't have to provide them with benefits unless they are working or actively looking for work, and then only once they have been here for a while.

Sure they are entitled to health care, but that's no different to us being entitled to healthcare if we are in another EU country. Indeed there was an item on the radio this morning where they were interviewing a bunch of Brit ex-pats in Spain and they were praising the Spanish health system, that they could access, and expressing concern about what would happen if we left.

And don't forget that EU migrants contribute much more in taxation than they take in benefits and or cost public services, and also that the typical demographic of someone coming to the UK from other EU countries is that they are coming to work, are not of an age where they are likely to be a burden on the NHS etc. That is rather different to the demographic of Brits in Spain I would imagine.
There is an interesting programme called "How To Get a Council House" on Channel 4 - not sure if there is a thread about this on here.

The programme is about people turning up to the London borough of Hounslow Housing Office to get either housing benefit to help with private rental accommodation or preferably to get a council house. It says that migrants getting priority for housing is a myth. Migrants are treated the same as everyone else.

As there is an extreme shortage of council houses, the Housing Officers try to help those they think are in most need. Hence a Romanian migrant called Florin got JSA for a while, then went back to Romania, got his wife and 5 kids and came back to the UK despite not having a job or any accommodation.. Everyone helping him in Britain acknowledged it was highly irresponsible of him to do this. He and his family spent a couple of nights in a homeless shelter with the 5 kids, and then the Housing Officers decided he qualified for help because he was actively looking for work and had received JSA in the past, and because he had 5 kids with him who couldn't be left on the streets, he and his family were housed in Birmingham as the rent the council paid on his behalf was cheaper there than in London - it was £750 per month.

He was still unemployed 5 weeks later - though obviously it's possible he is working cash in hand. In theory his benefits will stop after 3 months if he hasn't found employment, but with 5 kids it is unlikely that the family will be turfed out even if he hasn't found a job. I doubt the council are going to let 5 little kids sleep rough. He said he left Romania and brought his kids because he could not bear to watch them starve and that there was a better life for them in the UK. He wants them to go to school and learn English and have a better future than they would have in Romania.

I think it is this kind of situation that the Leave campaign think should be stopped - where someone foreign who hasn't paid into the system gets priority over someone else who has paid into the system through NI or taxes, because the foreign person is in greater need. So I assume Florin and his wife and kids would not have been allowed into the country under the policy advocated by the Leave campaign without him having either a firm job offer or a realistic prospect of employment because he had skills that were in short supply in Britain, and without showing that they would not be a burden on the State.

I am not sure what the Leave campaign think about British people who have not paid into the system being prioritised for help with housing over migrants who have paid into the system through NI and taxes but who then become unemployed through no fault of their own.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1461 on: June 01, 2016, 11:38:23 PM »
It says that migrants getting priority for housing is a myth. Migrants are treated the same as everyone else.
Of course it is, but I can understand that if you haven't got a house you might believe the myth

As there is an extreme shortage of council houses, the Housing Officers try to help those they think are in most need.
Which is, of course, a failure that rests squarely with the UK government, and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

I am not sure what the Leave campaign think about British people who have not paid into the system being prioritised for help with housing over migrants who have paid into the system through NI and taxes but who then become unemployed through no fault of their own.
And here perhaps is the nub of the issue - whether we should prioritise people who happen to be born in the UK whether or not they have contributed to the UK or whether we should priories those who have contributed to the UK wherever they might have been born.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1462 on: June 01, 2016, 11:45:34 PM »
The EU has 100% of the power
No it doesn't - it has very little power and any power is has is granted by, and can be taken away, by its member states. That is the way the EU is set up - it is controlled by and power is vested in the EU by member states.

with no mandate, zilch, Zero%!!!
Wrong - any decision taken at EU level is decided by the council of ministers which is, effectively the democratically elected governments of the member states and the EU parliament, which is a democratically elected body.

And you're stupid enough to want to give them even more power...
Who is saying we are giving them more power - if we stay they will retain the power (see above) that they have. By contrast if we leave we will grant yet more power to the most centralised of government structures, that of the Westminster House of Commons, where a government can have 100% of the power with barely more that one third of the support of the electorate. That really worries me, and it should too if you are thinking straight.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 11:52:43 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Rhiannon

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1463 on: June 02, 2016, 07:04:56 AM »
Year and years ago when I was an activist in the Green Party it opposed the EU (and certainly the Euro) on the basis that sustainable decisions had yo be made as locally as possible. In principle I still agree with that, but it doesn't happen and won't happen. The world's a very different place from twenty years' ago.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1464 on: June 02, 2016, 07:26:55 AM »
Year and years ago when I was an activist in the Green Party it opposed the EU (and certainly the Euro) on the basis that sustainable decisions had yo be made as locally as possible. In principle I still agree with that, but it doesn't happen and won't happen. The world's a very different place from twenty years' ago.
That isn't inconsistent with the EU which espouses the principle of subsidiarity, namely that decisions should be taken at the most local practicable level. There are, of course, environmental issues that can only be solved by actions at much, much greater levels and the EU or globally are most appropriate.

Rhiannon

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1465 on: June 02, 2016, 07:42:52 AM »
That isn't inconsistent with the EU which espouses the principle of subsidiarity, namely that decisions should be taken at the most local practicable level. There are, of course, environmental issues that can only be solved by actions at much, much greater levels and the EU or globally are most appropriate.

But this is why the Euro has been so unstable to the brink of collapse, and why it's entirely possible it will still crater. In order to work properly it requires one fiscal policy for the whole of the Eurozone. Because member states wanted to retain fiscal autonomy there isn't one; instead there is the fudge of conditions that are somehow supposed to work for an incredibly diverse range of economies. The EU isn't centralised enough where it matters most, the Eurozone even more so.

jeremyp

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1466 on: June 02, 2016, 08:23:37 AM »
But this is why the Euro has been so unstable to the brink of collapse, and why it's entirely possible it will still crater. In order to work properly it requires one fiscal policy for the whole of the Eurozone. Because member states wanted to retain fiscal autonomy there isn't one; instead there is the fudge of conditions that are somehow supposed to work for an incredibly diverse range of economies. The EU isn't centralised enough where it matters most, the Eurozone even more so.
That's why the Euro causes weak economies so much trouble. In order for the Euro to work properly, you need money to flow from the stronger states to the weaker states. Within a country, this happens almost automatically. Weaker areas take in less tax and consume more welfare and other aide. However, between autonomous countries, this becomes a big issue because any transfer of cash is highly visible and politically sensitive.

There are two ways in which it could be better

1. The Euro could not exist - this would have been better for everybody, but it's too late now.

2. The Eurozone could integrate more. Essentially it has to become a federation with a central government like the USA. There are probably a lot of People in the Eurozone for whom this would be very unpalatable.
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Rhiannon

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1467 on: June 02, 2016, 08:47:14 AM »
Exactly.

L.A.

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1468 on: June 02, 2016, 10:39:18 AM »

Quote
2. The Eurozone could integrate more. Essentially it has to become a federation with a central government like the USA. There are probably a lot of People in the Eurozone for whom this would be very unpalatable.

I think that the Eurozone has got to integrate if it is to survive and prosper - but that idea tends to terrify people who see  fear a Europe dominated by a powerful Germany.
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Rhiannon

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1469 on: June 02, 2016, 11:20:48 AM »
I think that the Eurozone has got to integrate if it is to survive and prosper - but that idea tends to terrify people who see  fear a Europe dominated by a powerful Germany.

I'm not entirely sure the Germans are that thrilled at the prospect.

jakswan

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1470 on: June 02, 2016, 11:33:41 AM »
Indeed - but this is classic dog whistle project fear stuff of the worst kind. The reality is we won't suddenly be facing millions and millions of additional migrants arriving if we stay, and also because migration (and its control) is effectively based on economics, even if we leave you can bet your bottom dollar that migration numbers will hardly change and that the kind of people who end up here now will still end up here after Brexit - you know the people who clean your hospital, work in your care homes, pick fruit and veg (at one end of the spectrum) and highly trained nurser, doctors, academics etc at the other. Why, because we need them.

However there is a point at which services start to get stretched, and limits need to be put in place, you might argue this figure is 3, 30,000, 300,000, 3 million, 30 million. We can discuss what this figure should be and have this debate in society among the electorate.

I think the government should be able to decide based on consensus of electorate, can't do that in the EU, democracy undermined, vote leave.
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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1471 on: June 02, 2016, 11:35:46 AM »
I think that the Eurozone has got to integrate if it is to survive and prosper - but that idea tends to terrify people who see  fear a Europe dominated by a powerful Germany.

I don't think its that people are terrified just that they don't want to be part of it, vote leave.
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BeRational

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1472 on: June 02, 2016, 11:37:56 AM »
However there is a point at which services start to get stretched, and limits need to be put in place, you might argue this figure is 3, 30,000, 300,000, 3 million, 30 million. We can discuss what this figure should be and have this debate in society among the electorate.

I think the government should be able to decide based on consensus of electorate, can't do that in the EU, democracy undermined, vote leave.

I think this is the point I was trying to make.

With uncontrolled immigration, it only slows down once the country is trashed.

Not a good method.
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jeremyp

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1473 on: June 02, 2016, 11:47:22 AM »

I think the government should be able to decide based on consensus of electorate, can't do that in the EU, democracy undermined, vote leave.

Resources in London are getting overstretched, we need to stop Johnny Provincialler from coming in, let's vote for London to leave England so we can set up border controls.

This is what you sound like.

In reality, free movement within Europe means free movement into and out of the UK. Long before the system breaks down, migration out of the UK will exceed migration into the UK.

What are you going to tell the hundreds of thousands of Brits who will be kicked out of their jobs in other countries in the EU? "Sorry I fucked your life up but my paranoia is more important than your livelihood"?

Of course, actually, that won't happen because any free trade deal we do with the EU after we leave will include free movement of labour. You have been lied to by the likes of Boris, Michael and Nigel. Leaving the EU will not solve the perceived problems of immigration.
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jeremyp

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Re: The result of the EU referendum:
« Reply #1474 on: June 02, 2016, 11:48:17 AM »
With uncontrolled immigration, it only slows down once the country is trashed.

Does it? Can you provide any supporting evidence?
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