The result of the EU referendum:

[jakswan]

I am not suggesting that the market is the only factor, and yes the government determines the level of migrant workers. We have an on-line sponsor management points system to admit skilled non-EU workers, which can also be used for EU migrants if we leave the EU. We will need to add another tier for fruit picker,  street cleaner and care worker type jobs because currently the system is used for students and jobs that would require the equivalent of an NVQ6 qualification and above.

I am saying that a strain on infrastructure caused by EU migrants is a problem to be overcome by investing in infrastructure or finding creative solutions or dowgrading expectations of what the state will provide because I think market forces and the need for EU labour and Britain's economic growth will be a higher priority for businesses and therefore for governments, than the impact of EU migration on free or cheap infrastructure services.

I could be wrong but I don't think leaving the EU will solve the lack of funding for infrastructure problems or the housing shortages. Even if we extend the points based work visa system to EU migrants rather than accept free movement of people, and have a category for fruit pickers, the number of migrants we need due to labour shortages will put a strain on infrastructure. Not to mention the cost of immigration enforcement at Dover and patrolling shore lines.

Just wondering if Brexiters have figured out who they will point the finger at next if there are bigger cuts to welfare because the growth in Britain's post-Brexit GDP can't keep up with the increasing welfare demands of an ageing population.

Fair enough I disagree but valid points.

If Brexit goes more horribly wrong than everyone has predicted (no 25%+ GDP growth by 2030) then those that voted for Brexit will have to live with their decision.

[jakswan]

Negotiating a free trade deal without free movement is not going to happen - why would the EU want to do us any favours if we so royally mess up the current system. IF we vote for Brexit I can see them making it very difficult for us. Not because they are going to be particularly vindictive but because they will have different priorities (sorting out the mess that WILL occur if we do leave) which will no longer include us.

Remains to seen, economies in the EU are not doing well, putting up trade barriers is not going to be a sensible decision for them.

As to democracy - yea, Gove & Johnson are going to be the ones to hand us that. Uh -uh.

Don't vote conservative then!

[jakswan]

I wouldn't put money on us getting a deal significantly different to Norway or Switzerland, which would mean that we would still have to accept free movement. The 'Free Trade Deal' that the Brexitors go on about is pure fantasy.

The free trade deal with Canada, Turkey, South Korea, fantasy as well?

[ProfessorDavey]

The free trade deal with Canada ...

What free trade deal with Canada - there isn't one even though there have been formal negotiations for 8 years and the original announcement of the intention to develop a deal was 12 years ago.

And even if it was ratified it only covers goods, not services and you might want to check the extent of our services trade with the EU. So if our negotiations are like Canada and assuming an announcement to develop a deal happens on the 24th June we can anticipate that we still won't have a deal in 2028 and the draft deal wouldn't involve services. Hmm Canada isn't such a great example for the Brexiters to use - but as ever they don't tend to look at the actually evidence as they are too busy hand waving in their fantasy economics, magic money tree world.

[L.A.]

The free trade deal with Canada, Turkey, South Korea, fantasy as well?

There are a small number of countries that would trade with us on that basis - that's a million miles away from the kind of 'Free Trade Zone' that has been put forward as our salvation (but unfortunately does not exist)

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Remains to seen, economies in the EU are not doing well, putting up trade barriers is not going to be a sensible decision for them.

Don't vote conservative then!

Gove or Johnson could be prime minister within weeks of the referendum and there wouldn't be a vote for another 3 and a half years. If employers were then able to fix hours of work at will It would be relatively easy to arrange a ''work some extra hours for Britain'' day on polling day 2020.

[ProfessorDavey]

The free trade deal with ... Turkey

Turkey gets a deal because it has applied to join the EU.

[ProfessorDavey]

The free trade deal ... South Korea

The South Korea deal is primarily about goods, there is limited free trade liberalisation on services

[L.A.]

The problem is, it's not good enough just to get some kind of 'rough and ready' deal that gives us some kind of access to the EU. If we don't have unrestricted access (as now), all those multinationals that have created so many jobs and brought so much prosperity to this country will be off like a flash.

[ProfessorDavey]

The problem is, it's not good enough just to get some kind of 'rough and ready' deal that gives us some kind of access to the EU. If we don't have unrestricted access (as now), all those multinationals that have created so many jobs and brought so much prosperity to this country will be off like a flash.

Indeed - we are already seeing companies including Brexit break clauses in contracts for inward investment into the UK, allow them to walk away if the UK votes to leave.

[L.A.]

Indeed - we are already seeing companies including Brexit break clauses in contracts for inward investment into the UK, allow them to walk away if the UK votes to leave.

The likes of Nissan and Toyota rely on tariff-free access to the EU and totally open borders to shift their goods and parts - and even staff around Europe. If we screw-up on providing that for them, we would no longer be an attractive location and they would probably be off to Eastern Europe.

[jeremyp]

So you are against democracy now?

So if Londoners voted to leave the UK and put up border controls, that would not be democratic?

Give the dog whistle a rest no one will be kicked out of their jobs.

No they won't because we will not be allowed to change the current rules on EU immigration if we want a trade deal with the EU.

If we throw caution to the wind and throw up immigration barriers, do you think France and Spain and Germany will stand idly by letting our ex-pats take their jobs. 

I don't think you are listening lets try again.

No, it's you that's not listening.

The actual point I was making that this country should decide that figure, after debate, discussion, due democratic process.

And the point I was making is that we will not be able to make that decision, not unless we close out borders with the EU and that would be a disaster.

You might well argue that Britain having that control is as daft as London having that control and all borders should be open to everyone from everywhere?

Yep. Sounds good to me

[SusanDoris]

I listened to the PM's in or out slot around 5:30 and raised a cheer for Bill Oddie who is definitely for remaining in.  There were also two 18-year-olds - in my opinion - yes, very biased thank goodness! - the girl, a clear remain in,  was far more clear and logical, so I hope many young people heard her and, most importantly, make sure they register to vote.

[jakswan]

So if Londoners voted to leave the UK and put up border controls, that would not be democratic?

Yes of course don't believe in self-determination?

No they won't because we will not be allowed to change the current rules on EU immigration if we want a trade deal with the EU.

So you lot keep asserting.

If we throw caution to the wind and throw up immigration barriers, do you think France and Spain and Germany will stand idly by letting our ex-pats take their jobs. 

Any change to treaties would not effect immigrants, there is an agreement that covers that.

No, it's you that's not listening.

Well you seemed to have ignored much of my post so....

And the point I was making is that we will not be able to make that decision, not unless we close out borders with the EU and that would be a disaster.

Well I disagree that it would be diaster, and will be voting leave, you disagree vote remain.

Yep. Sounds good to me

So you want completely open borders, a scary prospect, if Bremainers are advocating this we should vote leave.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Fair enough I disagree but valid points.

If Brexit goes more horribly wrong than everyone has predicted (no 25%+ GDP growth by 2030) then those that voted for Brexit will have to live with their decision.

Yes we will have to disagree. I wish I shared your optimism about the stoicism of the British people - but I think that all ended some time after the Blitz.

I think they will still be blaming migrants taking their jobs through the visa system and the lack of availability of council houses and landlords not willing to rent to people on Housing Benefit and not getting enough welfare to prevent rent arrears and eviction and the crowded classrooms and the NHS waiting times and the cuts to welfare and the high cost of living, the use of food banks, homelessness because of high rents etc .

The UK sponsor management system has allowed lots of non-EU migrants to come in as students and workers - it's pretty easy to become a licensed sponsor.

I think people will also complain about migrants sneaking illegally into the UK or over-staying after their visas run out and the lack of funding for enforcement and detention centres and the cost of policing immigration.

[Jack Knave]

No it doesn't - it has very little power and any power is has is granted by, and can be taken away, by its member states. That is the way the EU is set up - it is controlled by and power is vested in the EU by member states.

WRONG!!!

So what is Ever-Closer-Union then? And this talk of a federal state? And what do you think is going on in the EZ - and don't naively say we aren't in it as if the people of Brussels with all their power aren't going to grab more in the future.

You have a very poor understanding of human nature. Have you read the book Animal Farm? Brussels are the pigs, the EP are the sheep and Greece are the cows...

Wrong - any decision taken at EU level is decided by the council of ministers which is, effectively the democratically elected governments of the member states and the EU parliament, which is a democratically elected body.

WRONG!!!

We have no British people in Brussels as they are all bought off and are working for the EU - you can't have two master!!!

Who is saying we are giving them more power - if we stay they will retain the power (see above) that they have. By contrast if we leave we will grant yet more power to the most centralised of government structures, that of the Westminster House of Commons, where a government can have 100% of the power with barely more that one third of the support of the electorate. That really worries me, and it should too if you are thinking straight.

WRONG!!!

Nothing stands still and the status quo is not on the table.

If we leave we can work to change the system we have now at Westminster.

[Jack Knave]

Year and years ago when I was an activist in the Green Party it opposed the EU (and certainly the Euro) on the basis that sustainable decisions had yo be made as locally as possible. In principle I still agree with that, but it doesn't happen and won't happen. The world's a very different place from twenty years' ago.

But things are changing because of the internet. This big size global thingy is on the way out for various reasons. Radio 4 had a programme about Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful". If you can find it it may help to explain things.

[Jack Knave]

Sorry this is complete straw man argument.

The UK would be completely screwed if 30 million of our wiring age population all upped and left for another country - by your argument that the UK should have a mechanism to stop it happening, you should therefore require the UK to have a policy that prevents people leaving the UK, as well as one to prevent them arriving. Sounds rather authoritarian to me - didn't the ex communist countries used to have this policy?

No, their policy was to forcibly move people from their homelands so that they lost their national loyalties to them and so wouldn't try to rebel against Moscow. By moving them they lost the reason to resist and made them more compliant and dejected - though hoping the next generation wouldn't have any memories of a homeland and so become the homogenous bland Soviet.

This is the idea behind multiculturalism and free movement but instead of forced deportation just let the poorer lot invade the richer peoples and hope this will dilute the national fervour over time. 

[Jack Knave]

But if we still want to trade with the EU after Brexit we still have to accept the free movement of people as Norway currently does - and Norway still has to pay for the privilidge without having any say. Why would anyone in their right mind choose an option that gives you all of the disadvantages with none of the advantages. The Brexit position on this matter does not make sense.

This is pure rubbish!!!

[Nearly Sane]

This is pure rubbish!!!

I am undone by your exclamation marks

[L.A.]

But if we still want to trade with the EU after Brexit we still have to accept the free movement of people as Norway currently does - and Norway still has to pay for the privilidge without having any say. Why would anyone in their right mind choose an option that gives you all of the disadvantages with none of the advantages. The Brexit position on this matter does not make sense.

This is pure rubbish!!!

This is very much not rubbish, and it's right at the core of the lie that the Brexit bunch are peddling.

1/ Norway and Switzerland have to accept the same free movement of labour as EU countries.

2/ If we are lucky we might get a similar arrangement for the UK (if not we will be in very deep shit)

3/ We will still have to accept EU migrants (which will be fortunate because we need so many of them)

Sorry that's it: the best future that a Brexit might bring us would be remarkably similar to the status quo - except we won't have any say in running things.

[Aruntraveller]

This is pure rubbish!!!

DO your exclamation marks alone disprove this. I think not.

If Brexit win - I'll give you 6 months and you'll be begging to be let back in. Trouble is for the rest of us it will be too late.

Anyway the word you should have used is balderdash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Only cos it brings a little variety to your constant use of WRONG & rubbish!!!! - and yet so often that is all it is an exclamation with no argument to back it up. Ne'er mind keep taking the tabloids)

[jakswan]

2/ If we are lucky we might get a similar arrangement for the UK (if not we will be in very deep shit)

All of the "credible sources" predict we will be richer than we are now even if we don't get a free trade deal.

[L.A.]

All of the "credible sources" predict we will be richer than we are now even if we don't get a free trade deal.

The only 'sources' I've heard making such optimistic predictions are a small bunch of hard-line Brexitors who are far from credible.

[SusanDoris]

I had to turn off Radio 4 again this morning  - too much attention given to Ian Duncan-Smith's comments that the audience laughed at David Cameron without, in my opinion, giving equal time to those who did not laugh.  Nor could I listen to much of the phone-in comments on Five Live last night; a few moderately expressed, rational comments, many ranting, single-issue outers.