The result of the EU referendum:

[Rhiannon]

My daughters have reported that a poll among pupils in their school was in favour of Brexit.

[L.A.]

I had to turn off Radio 4 again this morning  - too much attention given to Ian Duncan-Smith's comments that the audience laughed at David Cameron without, in my opinion, giving equal time to those who did not laugh.  Nor could I listen to much of the phone-in comments on Five Live last night; a few moderately expressed, rational comments, many ranting, single-issue outers.

There have always been a section of the British  public who become quite irrational as soon as the word 'immigration' is mentioned and they are being 'egged-on' by some pretty dubious characters.

Duncan Smith was the worst leader that the Tories have had in a very long time and he must have been a great help to Blair in securing him his second term. For some reason the right of the party think he is great though his record shows him to be a duplicitous bastard.

[jakswan]

The only 'sources' I've heard making such optimistic predictions are a small bunch of hard-line Brexitors who are far from credible.

You then are a classic example of how propaganda, spin and lies can be effective.

The pro-remain predictions all claim we will be richer than we are now regardless of any trade deal.

[ProfessorDavey]

You then are a classic example of how propaganda, spin and lies can be effective.

The pro-remain predictions all claim we will be richer than we are now regardless of any trade deal.

On the contrary, it is you that have bought into falsehoods.

A significant number of the expert reports do predict negative growth over a period of up to 5 years meaning we will be poorer. And of course negative growth needs to be reversed over a time to before the original baseline GDP may be attained again - i.e. GDP returns to levels as of summer 2016.

Also you need to understand the difference between absolute and real GDP growth. The cost of living increases so there can be absolute GDP growth but we will in real terms be poorer if that GDP growth doesn't match inflationary growth, so in real terms there is negative growth.

Just so you can pop off the blinkers, unwed yourself from the propaganda and actually see the world as it is, lets try this example. Which of the following is 'richer' in reality, in other words greater purchasing power - someone earning £25,000 in 1975 or someone earning £30,000 in 2016. In your bizarre world the £30k earning person is richer - but of course they aren't - £25k in 1975 was a massive salary and could buy an average-ish house outright and still have half salary left. £30k in 2016 is middlish income. It is clear that the person earning £25k is richer in reality, even not in absolute terms, because of the change in cost of living.

So back to the actual debate - trotting out tired old cliches such as 'we will be richer than we are now' is pointless, nonsense, and quite probably wrong, because it takes no account of the change in cost of living - note too that Brexit is likely to increase cost of living changes.

And putting that all aside, the really important question is relative - will we be better off if we leave or remain - every credible independent economic organisation thinks the same on this - we will be worse off if we leave compared to remaining.

[ProfessorDavey]

My daughters have reported that a poll among pupils in their school was in favour of Brexit.

Must be a rather unusual demographic as all polls ave suggested the youngest are most in favour of staying. Certainly my kids and their friends are massively pro-EU. My 17 year old son is somewhat pissed off that he can't vote, as it is his future that is being affected.

[jakswan]

There have always been a section of the British  public who become quite irrational as soon as the word 'immigration' is mentioned and they are being 'egged-on' by some pretty dubious characters.

Sections... both sides have irrational elements and will resort to name calling to shut down debate on the issue.

[L.A.]

You then are a classic example of how propaganda, spin and lies can be effective.

The pro-remain predictions all claim we will be richer than we are now regardless of any trade deal.

All respected bodies are predicting a better future for the UK if we remain in the EU. Yes, there are all kinds of odd-ball 'experts' claiming that some kind of a Free-Trade agreement would bring us to a land of Milk and Honey, but no such structure exists - it's just wishful thinking.

As I have pointed out before, unless we have really good access to the EU market, Britain will lose a lot of multinationals and that will be seriously bad news for our economy.

[L.A.]

Sections... both sides have irrational elements and will resort to name calling to shut down debate on the issue.

I was referring specifically to immigration.  You only need to see some of the interviews on TV to see the wild emotions that the subject can trigger.

[ProfessorDavey]

Sections... both sides have irrational elements and will resort to name calling to shut down debate on the issue.

Hmm - the old, 'well there are arguments on both sides' type disingenuous non-sense as if expert views are balanced. Bit like climate change - sure you can find the occasional nut job 'scientist' who denies climate change but the vast, vast majority of scientists accept the evidence for climate change. Likewise with economist on Brexit - there are a few odd balls, but the vast, vast majority are clear that leaving will be bad for the UK economy in comparison to remaining.

And on name-calling - well I'm sorry the shrill, excitable, un-evidenced ranting is coming almost exclusively from one side. Pointing out the economic dangers of Brexit by reporting expert opinion isn't the same as making statements that are flat out wrong, lies - e.g. the continued use of the £350million a week figure (savaged by the ONS) and claiming that it is the EU forcing HMRC to pay compound interest in VAT overpayment (when the EUCJ specifically rules in favour of the UK government saying their is no right in EU law to compound interest).

Problem is that evangelicals of all description have made up their minds and try to find 'facts' - whether true or not to justify their pre-judged dogma. And the classic Brexit mindset is clearly evangelical and driven by dogma, rather then truth or evidence.

[jakswan]

On the contrary, it is you that have bought into falsehoods.
...
Also you need to understand the difference between absolute and real GDP growth. The cost of living increases so there can be absolute GDP growth but we will in real terms be poorer if that GDP growth doesn't match inflationary growth, so in real terms there is negative growth.

First let me clarify my statement; all "credible sources" (those decided by valid by Davey, I don't think they are credible) claim by 2030 we will be richer than we are now if we leave.

Just so you can pop off the blinkers, unwed yourself from the propaganda and actually see the world as it is, lets try this example.....

Yes we all know how inflation works Davey. So are you claiming some "credible sources" (those decided by valid by Davey, I don't think they are credible) claim by 2030 we will be poorer (if you take account of inflation) than we are now if we leave.

So back to the actual debate - trotting out tired old cliches such as 'we will be richer than we are now' is pointless, nonsense, and quite probably wrong, because it takes no account of the change in cost of living - note too that Brexit is likely to increase cost of living changes.

Probably wrong or actually wrong?

And putting that all aside, the really important question is relative - will we be better off if we leave or remain - every credible independent economic organisation thinks the same on this - we will be worse off if we leave compared to remaining.

Surely it is down to the voter to decide what is the most important question. They might actually think that as long the economy continues to grow we don't need EU bureaucrats in charge.

[jakswan]

Problem is that evangelicals of all description have made up their minds and try to find 'facts' - whether true or not to justify their pre-judged dogma. And the classic Brexit mindset is clearly evangelical and driven by dogma, rather then truth or evidence.

Strange isn't it, I can see your argument its entirely valid, I disagree but I don't think everyone who disagrees with me is "evangelical and driven by dogma". If I thought like that I'd have to take a long hard look in the mirror and ponder if I'm actually a hypocrite.

According to the FT:-

Jeremy Corbyn has taken aim at his own side in the EU referendum campaign by claiming that Treasury forecasts about the dire consequences of a vote to leave were “histrionic” hype and “myth-making”.

That is the leader of your own party isn't it Davey?

[ProfessorDavey]

Strange isn't it, I can see your argument its entirely valid, I disagree but I don't think everyone who disagrees with me is "evangelical and driven by dogma". If I thought like that I'd have to take a long hard look in the mirror and ponder if I'm actually a hypocrite.

You guys are exactly like climate change deniers. Expert after expert, credible independent economic organisation after credible independent economic organisation uses their massive levels of expertise to assess consequences of Brexit and they all agree that we will be worse off after Brexit than if we remain. Yet the Brexiters ignore all the evidence, childishly name-calling and insulting credible and respected experts, claiming there is some great conspiracy.

I'm struggling to see how you can disagree with all the expert opinion, unless your are:

A) also a credible expert (are you - you don't come across as a credible and respected economic expert)
or
B) have a range of alternative credible independent economic organisations who provide an opposite opinion (I've asked till I'm blue in the face but still nothing from you, zip, zilch.
or
C) not bothered with the facts but make up you mind counter to the evidence in which case your views are dogmatic and evangelical rather than evidence-based.

According to the FT:-
That is the leader of your own party isn't it Davey?

What makes you think I am currently a member of the Labour party.

[jakswan]

You guys are exactly like climate change deniers. Expert after expert, credible independent economic organisation after credible independent economic organisation uses their massive levels of expertise to assess consequences of Brexit and they all agree that we will be worse off after Brexit than if we remain. Yet the Brexiters ignore all the evidence, childishly name-calling and insulting credible and respected experts, claiming there is some great conspiracy.

I'm struggling to see how you can disagree with all the expert opinion, unless your are:

A) also a credible expert (are you - you don't come across as a credible and respected economic expert)
or
B) have a range of alternative credible independent economic organisations who provide an opposite opinion (I've asked till I'm blue in the face but still nothing from you, zip, zilch.
or
C) not bothered with the facts but make up you mind counter to the evidence in which case your views are dogmatic and evangelical rather than evidence-based.

Have you thought that if the CBI are right 41% GDP growth remain 36% GDP by 2030 growth leave might be a price I'm prepared to pay to leave? I don't trust these forecasts since many of those making them predicted the same thing would happen if we left the ERM and all of them failed to see the 2008 crash.

Economics is more an art than a science.

What makes you think I am currently a member of the Labour party.

Apologies thought you were?

[ProfessorDavey]

Have you thought that if the CBI are right 41% GDP growth remain 36% GDP by 2030 growth leave ...

Ah progress - you appear to be accepting that we will be nearly £2billion a week (at 2016 prices) worse off if we leave that remaining - thats about £900million a week knocked off public spending. Progress at last.

... might be a price I'm prepared to pay to leave?

But it isn't just you that will be paying, it will be everyone. And no I don't think it si a price worth paying at all - not least because I strongly support the EU as an organisation that provides stability, prosperity, peace, freedom and rights - and also has acted to dampen petty nationalism.

I don't trust these forecasts since many of those making them predicted the same thing would happen if we left the ERM and all of them failed to see the 2008 crash.

Economics is more an art than a science.

Oh and you were doing so well - back to your climate change denier mentality - all the experts say so, but they're all wrong - I know better. Dogmatic, evangelical claptrap. Still waiting for your alternative view from any credible independent economic organisation.

Apologies thought you were?

Not any more and the aforementioned current leader is the reason.

[Shaker]

The current leader is the reason that I am.

[ProfessorDavey]

The current leader is the reason that I am.

Enjoy opposition do you? Like the Tories in power?

[Shaker]

Enjoy opposition do you? Like the Tories in power?

No. I like my Labour politicians actually to be Labour politicians, not pretend Tories.

[L.A.]

No. I like my Labour politicians actually to be Labour politicians, not pretend Tories.

I though they were just a 1970's re-enactment group.

[ProfessorDavey]

No. I like my Labour politicians actually to be Labour politicians, not pretend Tories.

I like mine to be able to actually make change happen, and to do that they need to be elected and that requires them to be electable.

Never had much time for those 'our politics is pure' types who prefer the purity of their ideology over the pragmatic requirements of politics, that you only change people's lives if you are in government.

I saw plenty of that type in the late 90s - hated being in a position where they could actually make changes, preferred opposition so slunk off to the SWP and pretended that they were changing the world by holding monthly political meetings attended by half a dozen like minded extreme left wingers. Interestingly most were uber-middle class academics.

[L.A.]

The Loonie Left are really good at living-up to the stereotype.

It's just a shame that no one in the Labour party can spare the time to present their case for Remain.

[Shaker]

The Loonie Left are really good at living-up to the stereotype.

There's something, if not comforting, then at least familiar about the ones who can only reel out names, slogans, soundbites and catchphrases instead of argument. You always know where you are with them - nowhere.

[L.A.]

There's something, if not comforting, then at least familiar about the ones who can only reel out names, slogans, soundbitesand catchphrases instead of argument. You always know were you are with them - nowhere.

I always imagine that they must all have Box-Sets of Citizen Smith that they avidly watch every night - doesn't anyone realise how irrelevant they appear to those of us who inhabit the real world?

[Shaker]

You can also quickly and easily identify them by their penchant for claiming that they and only they live in 'the real world.'

[ProfessorDavey]

There's something, if not comforting, then at least familiar about the ones who can only reel out names, slogans, soundbitesand catchphrases instead of argument. You always know were you are with them - nowhere.

I have two problems with Corbyn.

The first is that I don't agree with his hard left political positions. I have always been soft left and a pragmatist rather than an ideologue on political issues. So I'm centre right in Labour party terms (rather than Corbyn hard left), but centre left in overall political terms (as opposed to Corbyn's hard, hard left).

But that isn't the only issue. The second is one of leadership - a leader must have the ability and experience to lead if they are to be effective. Corbyn is woefully inexperienced as a leader and really doesn't demonstrate any leadership skills. Now if he was 30 you might perhaps excuse his lack of leadership - but he is 67 and prior to becoming leader his most significant leadership position in all his time in politics is chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on the Chagos Islands. No position as a minister (however junior), nor a shadow minister, no role as leader of a council etc. And you have to ask why - regardless of his political positions, were he to have previously demonstrated leadership skills, he would have ended up in some more senior roles, somewhere, at sometime. But he didn't and that ably demonstrates first his lack of leadership skills, secondly his chronic lack of leadership experience, which we see to ably and painfully at the moment.

And this isn't a failure of all his like minded political colleagues. Like him or loath him Ken Livingston has held significant leadership positions over many years - he has leadership skills and abilities if even if you don't agree with his political positions.

So to my mind the Labour party currently have a leader who cannot lead, and also has policies I (and the vast majority of the public) don't agree with. The Tories must think Christmas has come early which is a real shame. If Labour had a competent and electable leader, given that the Tories are tearing themselves apart they'd be romping towards victory in 2020 and way ahead in the mid-term polling - yet they are languishing several points behind the Tories in most current polls. For an opposition to have any chance in the next general election they need to be well ahead at this stage in the political cycle.

And back on topic - where on earth is Corbyn in the EU debate - he is completely invisible - he should be out there selling a positive case for the EU, relentlessly campaigning to get Labour voters to vote remain. There was some horrifying polling recently which indicated that almost half of Labour voters don't even know that the official Labour position on the referendum is to vote for remain. FFS. Even his Union chums are getting really twitchy about his lack of leadership on the EU referendum.

Corbyn should do a Sadiq Khan - agree, on this issue to share a platform with other leaders across the political spectrum in support of remain - ideally with Farron, Lucas, Sturgeon and Wood as well as Cameron. That would send an extremely strong message.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Loony lefties, ( is that me, must be I like that chap Corbyn )

Yes, as soon as Mr Corbyn reared his crinkled suit, no tie, ban the bomb head we stuck a label on him, hell! the man dislike our Monarchy but I like our Monarchy, so why do I like the man, he is refreshing, he talks of fairness, he does see the bigger picture, he knows capitalism is a busted flush, he knows we have to change our thinking both politically and morally, why is he not speaking more about the Tory smoke and mirror EU referendum, well I think he has, he wants us to stay.

Gonnagle.