The result of the EU referendum:

[ProfessorDavey]

And in the meantime the electorate gets manipulated into playing their games.

Indeed and the most unedifying part is the continuing rivalry between the posho old chums, continuing from their old school days through Oxford and their uber-elitist club and the positioning as alpha-male top dog in the tories.

I just cannot believe that either 'call me Dave' or 'hey I'm a man of the people Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson' truly believe in their positions - we are all party to a private rivalry the consequences of which will potentially affect the UK for decades.

[Nearly Sane]

I think I made it clear that I genuinely believe that Sturgeon is in favour of the EU, but she is also passionately in favour of scottish independence - do you really not that she recognises the massive opportunities for her prime goal of independence in a Brexit vote.

Her dream scenario, surely would be a marginal overall Brexit vote but a very strong scottish vote to remain. Perfect for her to use this as a trigger for a referendum, which could easily be won with a backdrop of the UK government shifting considerably rightwards, with Cameron gone and a new cabinet packed out with Brexiters.

Put it this way, she hardly seems to be as passionate in her defence of the EU than she was in favour of independence for scotland.

And how is that the equivalent of being dishonest which was your take on the others in your post?

[Rhiannon]

Indeed and the most unedifying part is the continuing rivalry between the posho old chums, continuing from their old school days through Oxford and their uber-elitist club and the positioning as alpha-male top dog in the tories.

I just cannot believe that either 'call me Dave' or 'hey I'm a man of the people Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson' truly believe in their positions - we are all party to a private rivalry the consequences of which will potentially affect the UK for decades.

Yes, none of this is about principle. It's personal ambition, private rivalry and a desire to kick Farage in the knackers for his impudence.

As for which way to vote and who to believe, there are so many unknowns and so much utter bollockry from both sides, we might as well be asking Tony Stockwell to talk to my dear departed auntie Doris for her opinion. 

[ProfessorDavey]

And how is that the equivalent of being dishonest which was your take on the others in your post?

Where did I ever say that she was being dishonest - I didn't.

What I said was that their decisions and dedication to the cause in this referendum is tempered by other issues and other political ambitions including personal ones.

Actually the potential prize for Sturgeon on a political and personal ambition is perhaps the greatest of all. Sure Johnson or Gove (or even Corbyn) could end up as PM if things got their away. But that would hardly be epoch making in a historical context. Sturgeon has the chance of becoming the first PM of an independent Scotland - that really would be something in a historical context. She is a passionate believer in an independent Scotland, but she is also ruthlessly ambitious - do you really not think that this possibility hasn't entered her mind.

[Nearly Sane]

Where did I ever say that she was being dishonest - I didn't.

What I said was that their decisions and dedication to the cause in this referendum is tempered by other issues and other political ambitions including personal ones.

Actually the potential prize for Sturgeon on a political and personal ambition is perhaps the greatest of all. Sure Johnson or Gove (or even Corbyn) could end up as PM if things got their away. But that would hardly be epoch making in a historical context. Sturgeon has the chance of becoming the first PM of an independent Scotland - that really would be something in a historical context. She is a passionate believer in an independent Scotland, but she is also ruthlessly ambitious - do you really not think that this possibility hasn't entered her mind.

You had her in a post where you questioned whether the positions taken by Cameron, Gove, Johnson and Corbyn were their honest positions. In doing that you questioned their honesty and in linking Nicola to that you implicitly questioned her honesty in this matter.


 

[Nearly Sane]

And, of course the idea has entered her head, it would for anyone with even a smidgen of political acumen but then since I didn't say it hadn't, that would be you creating a strawman.

[ProfessorDavey]

And, of course the idea has entered her head, it would for anyone with even a smidgen of political acumen but then since I didn't say it hadn't, that would be you creating a strawman.

Nor did I say that she was being dishonest (quite the reverse) so that is an equivalently created strawman.

[Rhiannon]

So ner.

[Jack Knave]

This is pure rubbish!!!


This is very much not rubbish, and it's right at the core of the lie that the Brexit bunch are peddling.

1/ Norway and Switzerland have to accept the same free movement of labour as EU countries.

2/ If we are lucky we might get a similar arrangement for the UK (if not we will be in very deep shit)

3/ We will still have to accept EU migrants (which will be fortunate because we need so many of them)

Sorry that's it: the best future that a Brexit might bring us would be remarkably similar to the status quo - except we won't have any say in running things.

1) We are not Norway or Switzerland, we should do our own thing outside the single market and its stupid rules. I say 'should' because we have those twats Cameron and Osborne in power at the moment and who knows what will happen there.

2) We don't need luck as we 'shouldn't' be going for a deal as part of the single market. Outside of that is going to be just as good, if not better than being in the EU.

If we are in deep shit then so will the EU be and from there the whole globe.

3) Nar, that's one big pile of bull.

Sorry mate you are wide of the mark!!!

[Jack Knave]

DO your exclamation marks alone disprove this. I think not.

If Brexit win - I'll give you 6 months and you'll be begging to be let back in. Trouble is for the rest of us it will be too late.

Anyway the word you should have used is balderdash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Only cos it brings a little variety to your constant use of WRONG & rubbish!!!! - and yet so often that is all it is an exclamation with no argument to back it up. Ne'er mind keep taking the tabloids)

WRONG!!!

Brexit will only prove itself as a long term project. 6 months is just the start - the warm up act.

So your comments are rubbish!!!

[Jack Knave]

When a group of political activists realise that their 'world' is not shared by the electorate - it's time they stopped and think, but I guess that the Corbynites are too blinkered to notice.

What he thinks is that if only those plebs could understand his position they would believe it too. And of course he has the debating powers to change the minds of the Brussels cartel as well.....

[Jack Knave]

Dear Lapsed,

POWER TO THE PEOPLE, well actually I quite like that, but all people, not just the people who know how to work the system, funny but I am a Tory in some ways, there are some poor people who know how to work the system, but they are a very tiny minority, lets start with the fat cats, funny again that I agree with most of what Jack Knave chunters on about, the EU is corrupt, but unlike him I think we can get rid of them by reforming the EU, I suppose all this EU nonsense has had one positive effect, we are now more savvy about its going on and we know it needs to change.

Gonnagle.

You were almost wise there, Goony, until you describe me as chuntering. 

We can't change the EU they have too much power to be changed. Just as the Soviet Union couldn't be changed from within it had to be killed off.

But, yes, all this referendum stuff has awakened a good proportion of the public to the machinations of the EU and if we vote to remain they will be watching it more closely for any nasty deals and impingements on us.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Lapsed,

Ah well! me and you ( is that, you and I ) are in agreement that we stay, we can both hold hands and walk into the sunset, further, further!! since ProfDavey, Jeremyp and Gabriella have wiped the floor with Jakswan and Jack Knave, we can all hold hands and walk into the sunset singing, "Rule Brittania" or is that "It's the World in Union".

Gonnagle.

Talk about an echo chamber!!!

This is the problem with Corbyn as well, people of the same mind just chuntering to themselves and then proclaiming victory. Something the EU keeps doing by kicking the can down the road and then claiming the problem solved only to dumbfounded when it rears its ugly head again but twice as worse.

[jakswan]

Perhaps we need to hear more from respected figures with no axe to grind or overt political ambition. Some respected political elder statesmen (and women) perhaps.

But all Brexiters are mad as a box of frogs ain't they?

[Jack Knave]

For me it's not wealth that matters so much as stability.

As for Corbyn, I think his value is in that he offers something different. And he appears to be principles-driven. We know what Corbyn stands for. I've no idea what Cameron stand for at all, not least because all 'his' policies are Osborne's.

Yeah, right....He has been against the EU for years and said it's rotten and that we should leave it. And now......?? Yeah, he really is principled and keeps to his word...

[jakswan]

Since when are 'Open Europe' a credible and independent economic organisation?!?

And even then there 'middle case' scenario also predicts we will be worse off if we leave compared to staying. Indeed their most recent report summarises the likely scenario as follows:

'The growing economic evidence suggests that there would be a small negative economic result from Brexit, probably in the region of 0.5% – 1.5% of GDP in the long run, presuming a reasonable trade agreement is struck between the UK and the EU.'

Hmm so even the report from a non credible and non independent non economic organisation that you have cherry picked agrees with me, that GDP will be lower in the long run if we leave compared to staying.

As I explained predicting GDP to 2030 is a lottery so I don't place much value in any report, they all have skin in the game and most of these "credible sources" were wrong about the EURO, the effect of us leaving the ERM and didn't predict the 2008 crash.

I think we might be a little worse off or a little better off but I'd prefer a UK government to run the UK.

[jakswan]

I think the standard of debate has been pretty poor from both side so far, but Corbyn's great line "that the Conservative Party was a bigger threat to the country than the European Union was" ought to take some kind of prize.

You get the impression that he really just doesn't give a damn - which is maybe just what the Scots want? Brexit might be a good excuse for a second independence referendum?

Perhaps he knows he can never get elected so at least the EU will keep the Tories from actually having too much power.

[Nearly Sane]

Nor did I say that she was being dishonest (quite the reverse) so that is an equivalently created strawman.

Can I suggest that you read what has been written rather than quite so excitedly reply to what you might think has been written?

I first of all asked why Nicola belonged amongst a group of people you were stating as being dishonest, and then pointed out that the way you had done it implied (note this is not the same as 'saying') that she was dishonest by putting her in the same camp as those you did think were being dishonest.


Good of you to admit that you had created a strawman.

[Rhiannon]

Yeah, right....He has been against the EU for years and said it's rotten and that we should leave it. And now......?? Yeah, he really is principled and keeps to his word...

Being principled still allows for changing one's mind thanks to new understanding and information. Corbyn says that he now believes both workers' rights and protecting the environment are better served as part of the EU.

[Jack Knave]

I must admit it is all very strange - we seem to have a range of people leading campaigns who I'm not convinced actually believe the line they are selling.

So I'm not convinced that David Cameron would be campaigning to remain if he were a back bencher rather than the PM.

I'm not convinced that Boris would be campaigning for Brexit except for the fact that he sees this as his best route to number 10, likewise Michael Gove.

For all three of them they seem to have gone from hedging their bets to nailed on to one side or the other in months - it simply doesn't seem credible.

And I'm not convinced that Jeremy Corbyn really believes in staying and he might just think that Brexit vote and the inevitable Cameron departure just might get him to number 10.

Then we have Sturgeon, who I genuinely believe is in favour of staying, but might see Brexit as the best way to achieve her greater ambition of independence.

It seems that the actual issue is being treated as a political football for other purposes and political ambition. Perhaps we need to hear more from respected figures with no axe to grind or overt political ambition. Some respected political elder statesmen (and women) perhaps.

I agree with you most of them either sound like frauds or are just OTT. Only Farage and co. speak with any honesty.

[Jack Knave]

Being principled still allows for changing one's mind thanks to new understanding and information. Corbyn says that he now believes both workers' rights and protecting the environment are better served as part of the EU.

One of his gripes was that the EU was a boys club for the big corporations and bankers. What makes him think they will keep to these workers rights, or the environment? The guy is playing politics which he hated about the Westminster bubble.

[SusanDoris]

I have listened to Any Questions all the way through !!

Michael Heseltine and Caroline Lucas won the day and the audience were definitely mostly remainers. 

[Nearly Sane]

Mmmm

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21699969-there-some-dispute-over-mechanics-how-leave-eu-if-it-were-done

[Aruntraveller]

Mmmm

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21699969-there-some-dispute-over-mechanics-how-leave-eu-if-it-were-done

Interesting if somewhat depressing read. But I fear posted to no avail - you see it's RUBBISH!!!!!

[L.A.]

Interesting if somewhat depressing read. But I fear posted to no avail - you see it's RUBBISH!!!!!

It's simply "Stating the bleedin' obvious" - which the Brexitors like to pretend isn't so.