The result of the EU referendum:

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jack Knave,

You were almost wise there, Goony, until you describe me as chuntering. 

We all chunter on this forum, some chunter very eloquently, some ( not mentioning any names ) chunter in riddles, some, I need to have a dictionary handy, me, I am a kind of post and be damned kind of chunterer, you, Mr UKIP, I like your chuntering, why, because I understand where your coming from.

It is not that long ago that the UKIP supporter stuck your head above the parapet, not that long ago that I listened to the UKIP candidates on the telly and thought, yes I know why you are fed up with UK politics, some of the UKIP supporters actually made sense, but you were branded racist, I suppose within UKIP ranks there are some racists, same as the Tories, hell there are probably Labour supporter racists, but the vast majority of UKIP supporters, well I thought, yes they have a genuine gripe, they have been let down by the government, your average UKIP supporter just wanted to be heard.

What happened at the election, I watched UKIP receive quite a lot of votes but to no avail, the stupid voting system in this country stopped you from having a voice in parliament, that's what we should be talking about, but no, we are all chuntering on about the EU, which actually is good, we are all a lot wiser about that shower in Brussels, and we all will be watching them more closely, just like me with our Scottish referendum, anytime Independence is mentioned my hackles rise, I am now watching that shower in Holyrood

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

What happened at the election, I watched UKIP receive quite a lot of votes but to no avail, the stupid voting system in this country stopped you from having a voice in parliament, that's what we should be talking about,

Which is also what I've been chuntering about for years Gonners. While ever (Whilst ever?) we have this iniquitous first past the post system we will be landed with unrepresentative government - and even tho a Labour supporter I can see that they are just as wedded to FPTP as the Tories are - and why? Because it gives them an inbuilt majority more often than not - and disenfranchises the smaller parties such as UKIP & the Green Party. This is not how a modern democracy should go about reflecting the views of its electorate.

And it gives the governing party, of whatever flavour, the ability to ride roughshod over genuine concerns over policy relating to whatever you choose from the NHS to the Iraq war and all points in between.

Which also brings me back to the topic in hand the EU - as I have already highlighted above we do govern ourselves albeit in a most undemocratic fashion - as all of the legislation that has affected me directly was originated by UK governments and subsequently passed by those same governments - I do not see the loss of sovereignty that some are so fond of waxing lyrical about.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perhaps he knows he can never get elected so at least the EU will keep the Tories from actually having too much power.

That party is in meltdown.
Power in that party is going to be baronial with one uber baron constantly looking over their shoulder.
Corbyn just has to retire and the opposition to Labour are done particularly if Labour offers electoral reform..

[Ricky Spanish]

Hing oan. Who's party is in meltdown?

I need bullet points because this thread is all over the place.

Who's for in and who's for out?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

A very sterling, intelligent and honest post, wonderful chuntering After we deal with this EU nonsense we can then ask our elected to start fixing this country, sort out the voting system, sort out unemployment, sort out foodbanks, sort out the tax system, fund our NHS properly, build more housing, sort out our infrastructure ( Hoy! Sturgeon, I want a railway from Glasgow to the Airport, right!! ) tell our MEP's our MP's that we a sick to death of hearing about immigrants drowning, sick to death of watching them live in squalor, Europe is a rich continent, lets start sharing that wealth.

Gonnagle.

PS: Farmer, I am in, although I have never felt European, all that foreign food makes me queasy, give me a good old fashioned British curry anyday.

[jakswan]

Mmmm

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21699969-there-some-dispute-over-mechanics-how-leave-eu-if-it-were-done

Looks at one side and decides they hold the aces.

[L.A.]

Looks at one side and decides they hold the aces.

It's quite clear. All 27 countries have to agree on a possible post-brexit deal for the UK and even if countries like Germany want to keep free trade going at all costs (as some have suggested) they can't do it because there are countries who are much less sympathetic.

The best we can hope for is a deal along the lines of the one that Norway and Switzerland have - and that means free movement of labour.

[Jack Knave]

I have listened to Any Questions all the way through !!

Michael Heseltine and Caroline Lucas won the day and the audience were definitely mostly remainers.

That's so risible I won't even bother being to you rude about it. Lucas is as thick as shit and talks bollocks. Heseltine only has half a brain and has a vested interest in it. As he said he runs a business.

[Jack Knave]

It's simply "Stating the bleedin' obvious" - which the Brexitors like to pretend isn't so.

It is all speculation, nothing more.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jack Knave,

We all chunter on this forum, some chunter very eloquently, some ( not mentioning any names ) chunter in riddles, some, I need to have a dictionary handy, me, I am a kind of post and be damned kind of chunterer, you, Mr UKIP, I like your chuntering, why, because I understand where your coming from.

It is not that long ago that the UKIP supporter stuck your head above the parapet, not that long ago that I listened to the UKIP candidates on the telly and thought, yes I know why you are fed up with UK politics, some of the UKIP supporters actually made sense, but you were branded racist, I suppose within UKIP ranks there are some racists, same as the Tories, hell there are probably Labour supporter racists, but the vast majority of UKIP supporters, well I thought, yes they have a genuine gripe, they have been let down by the government, your average UKIP supporter just wanted to be heard.

What happened at the election, I watched UKIP receive quite a lot of votes but to no avail, the stupid voting system in this country stopped you from having a voice in parliament, that's what we should be talking about, but no, we are all chuntering on about the EU, which actually is good, we are all a lot wiser about that shower in Brussels, and we all will be watching them more closely, just like me with our Scottish referendum, anytime Independence is mentioned my hackles rise, I am now watching that shower in Holyrood

Gonnagle.

With regards to our voting system, as one Ukipper pointed out, it would only take a relatively small increase in their votes to start giving them a substantial number of seats. The problem with PR is that it gives you the same government all the time; a coalition - that's not democracy just inertia. Perhaps our system needs to be tweaked so that it reflects more the proportion of the votes but I'm against PR.   

[Jack Knave]

Which is also what I've been chuntering about for years Gonners. While ever (Whilst ever?) we have this iniquitous first past the post system we will be landed with unrepresentative government - and even tho a Labour supporter I can see that they are just as wedded to FPTP as the Tories are - and why? Because it gives them an inbuilt majority more often than not - and disenfranchises the smaller parties such as UKIP & the Green Party. This is not how a modern democracy should go about reflecting the views of its electorate.

And it gives the governing party, of whatever flavour, the ability to ride roughshod over genuine concerns over policy relating to whatever you choose from the NHS to the Iraq war and all points in between.

Which also brings me back to the topic in hand the EU - as I have already highlighted above we do govern ourselves albeit in a most undemocratic fashion - as all of the legislation that has affected me directly was originated by UK governments and subsequently passed by those same governments - I do not see the loss of sovereignty that some are so fond of waxing lyrical about.

And yet many complain about the unelected HoL's that have kerbed the stupid Tory endeavours. Not that I'm saying how it is is ok or anything just that it's funny how these things turn out some times.

[Jack Knave]

Hing oan. Who's party is in meltdown?

I need bullet points because this thread is all over the place.

Who's for in and who's for out?

I think he meant the Tories. I find Vlad's posts a little off the radar sometimes.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Trent,

A very sterling, intelligent and honest post, wonderful chuntering After we deal with this EU nonsense we can then ask our elected to start fixing this country, sort out the voting system, sort out unemployment, sort out foodbanks, sort out the tax system, fund our NHS properly, build more housing, sort out our infrastructure ( Hoy! Sturgeon, I want a railway from Glasgow to the Airport, right!! ) tell our MEP's our MP's that we a sick to death of hearing about immigrants drowning, sick to death of watching them live in squalor, Europe is a rich continent, lets start sharing that wealth.

Gonnagle.

PS: Farmer, I am in, although I have never felt European, all that foreign food makes me queasy, give me a good old fashioned British curry anyday.

But before you can really do all that you need to sort out the banking system, which intern means dealing with the big multinational companies and so on...and this includes the EU which is part of this cartel of corporatist clique.

[Jack Knave]

It's quite clear. All 27 countries have to agree on a possible post-brexit deal for the UK and even if countries like Germany want to keep free trade going at all costs (as some have suggested) they can't do it because there are countries who are much less sympathetic.

The best we can hope for is a deal along the lines of the one that Norway and Switzerland have - and that means free movement of labour.

The countries that could hold this up can be lent on because they receive more than they give. Anyway we can work on the WTO rulings and be ok by buying from the rest of the world.

And as I have said before the EU won't have our membership fee so they will be hurting big time, and if we suffer we'll buy less of their goods!!!

[L.A.]

It is all speculation, nothing more.

While nothing in life is certain (except death and taxes), the one thing we can be pretty certain of is that on June 24, Michael Gove won't wave his magic wand and reveal a pile of free trade agreements for every country in the world (or probably any).

What is likely to happen in the event of a Brexit vote, is that after a lot hard negotiation we will eventually be offered a deal with the EU similar to Switzerland and Norway, and like Switzerland and Norway, we would have to accept EU migrants. It will be a 'take it or leave it deal' - Germany might have a vested interest in selling us cars, but they are not in any position to over-ride the vote of the other members.

So, we would have to make another decision, whether to accept a deal that looks very much like what we currently have or make a total split with Europe. Obviously that would allow us to make all kinds of bizarre laws without interference from those appalling foreigners, but we wouldn't have free access to the EU market - and that would be a major problem for much of our industry and in particular those foreign companies who have established plants in this country specifically to serve the EU market.

So we actually have three options:

1/ We Remain.

2/ we negotiate a deal similar to Switzerland and Norway which would still give us access to the EU market but would allow EU migration (and probably wouldn't be free, those Brussels Eurocrats would likely demand an 'administration' fee)

3/ We go it alone - which might appeal to some, but it would mean that Britain was not a good manufacturing base for companies serving to the EU market. There would be no new investment and existing companies would downsize or shut-down. Very bad news  for the economy and employment.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

While nothing in life is certain (except death and taxes), the one thing we can be pretty certain of is that on June 24, Michael Gove won't wave his magic wand and reveal a pile of free trade agreements for every country in the world (or probably any).

What is likely to happen in the event of a Brexit vote, is that after a lot hard negotiation we will eventually be offered a deal with the EU similar to Switzerland and Norway, and like Switzerland and Norway, we would have to accept EU migrants. It will be a 'take it or leave it deal' - Germany might have a vested interest in selling us cars, but they are not in any position to over-ride the vote of the other members.

So, we would have to make another decision, whether to accept a deal that looks very much like what we currently have or make a total split with Europe. Obviously that would allow us to make all kinds of bizarre laws without interference from those appalling foreigners, but we wouldn't have free access to the EU market - and that would be a major problem for much of our industry and in particular those foreign companies who have established plants in this country specifically to serve the EU market.

So we actually have three options:

1/ We Remain.

2/ we negotiate a deal similar to Switzerland and Norway which would still give us access to the EU market but would allow EU migration (and probably wouldn't be free, those Brussels Eurocrats would likely demand an 'administration' fee)

3/ We go it alone - which might appeal to some, but it would mean that Britain was not a good manufacturing base for companies serving to the EU market. There would be no new investment and existing companies would downsize or shut-down. Very bad news  for the economy and employment.

Spot on.

Hopefully more people than not heed these points and vote status quo.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,

Yes, I agree with Vlad, spot on, it is interesting that I see a lot of comparisons with our Scottish Referendum although I would imagine that most posters on here can remember when we were not part of the EU.

I find Rhiannon's posts very interesting, being that just like me she can't see who is telling the truth, that was my dilemma over the Scottish referendum but just like the SNP the Exit campaign all seems to be back of a fag packet stuff, that was the clincher for me, the SNP were asking me to step into the void, no real plan of action, and just like the Scottish Referendum I did think it would be a very messy divorce.

It will also be very interesting to watch if, just like the Scottish referendum there is one big final push by the remain campaign, our Nicola will be the one to watch, how closely the SNP will aline with other parties, we do live in very interesting times

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

I find Rhiannon's posts very interesting, being that just like me she can't see who is telling the truth, that was my dilemma over the Scottish referendum but just like the SNP the Exit campaign all seems to be back of a fag packet stuff, that was the clincher for me, the SNP were asking me to step into the void, no real plan of action, and just like the Scottish Referendum I did think it would be a very messy divorce.

You know what they say about politicians:

You can always tell when they are lying, you can see their lips move (though I suspect that some might have been take courses in ventriloquism)

It will also be very interesting to watch if, just like the Scottish referendum there is one big final push by the remain campaign, our Nicola will be the one to watch, how closely the SNP will aline with other parties, we do live in very interesting times

Gonnagle.

I just hope Nicola stays north of the border, I can't see her presence being helpful to the Remain campaign in England.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think John Major's quite worried about the public being misled by Leave and rightly so.

We are the nation that dismantled it's welfare system.
Sold it's public utilities to Europeans.
Destroyed a perfectly serviceable meritocracy and junked British society in favour of a dodgy and unpleasant individualism unified by an ersatz fantsy nationalism and comedy version of Winston Churchill who incidentally quite freely talked in not negative terms of a United States of Europe.

Not complacent but still think people are going to go for status quo.
After all a year ago it looked as if Miliband had a chance and Clegg would be in government rather than his party gone in one dreadful night..

[jakswan]

While nothing in life is certain (except death and taxes), the one thing we can be pretty certain of is that on June 24, Michael Gove won't wave his magic wand and reveal a pile of free trade agreements for every country in the world (or probably any).

What is likely to happen in the event of a Brexit vote, is that after a lot hard negotiation we will eventually be offered a deal with the EU similar to Switzerland and Norway, and like Switzerland and Norway, we would have to accept EU migrants. It will be a 'take it or leave it deal' - Germany might have a vested interest in selling us cars, but they are not in any position to over-ride the vote of the other members.

So, we would have to make another decision, whether to accept a deal that looks very much like what we currently have or make a total split with Europe. Obviously that would allow us to make all kinds of bizarre laws without interference from those appalling foreigners, but we wouldn't have free access to the EU market - and that would be a major problem for much of our industry and in particular those foreign companies who have established plants in this country specifically to serve the EU market.

So we actually have three options:

1/ We Remain.

2/ we negotiate a deal similar to Switzerland and Norway which would still give us access to the EU market but would allow EU migration (and probably wouldn't be free, those Brussels Eurocrats would likely demand an 'administration' fee)

3/ We go it alone - which might appeal to some, but it would mean that Britain was not a good manufacturing base for companies serving to the EU market. There would be no new investment and existing companies would downsize or shut-down. Very bad news  for the economy and employment.

An example of JC's, the Labour Leader, "histrionic myth making".

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Lapsed,

Yes, I agree with Vlad, spot on, it is interesting that I see a lot of comparisons with our Scottish Referendum although I would imagine that most posters on here can remember when we were not part of the EU.

I find Rhiannon's posts very interesting, being that just like me she can't see who is telling the truth, that was my dilemma over the Scottish referendum but just like the SNP the Exit campaign all seems to be back of a fag packet stuff, that was the clincher for me, the SNP were asking me to step into the void, no real plan of action, and just like the Scottish Referendum I did think it would be a very messy divorce.

It will also be very interesting to watch if, just like the Scottish referendum there is one big final push by the remain campaign, our Nicola will be the one to watch, how closely the SNP will aline with other parties, we do live in very interesting times

Gonnagle.

Absolutely. I think though lots of people have mentally inflated being part of the committee but accepting the rules as brutally dominated by a viscious colonial power (which has no evidence) having gone on for centuries ( which has negative evidence ) with a passion ( which has no apparent cause since most people were happy to vote for parties mainly committed to staying in. ).

[Rhiannon]

Scotland seriously dodged a bullet given the price of Brent crude these days. Still, Nicola wants another referendum...

[L.A.]

An example of JC's, the Labour Leader, "histrionic myth making".

Sorry Jakswan,

I'm not going to let you get away with that:

Exactly what part of my argument do you find fault with, and how do you figure that is in any way related to Corbynism?

Corbyn's concern is Socialism (an unworkable theory that tries to redistribute wealth) - my concern is industry (that section of the economy that actually generates the wealth)

[Nearly Sane]

Jakswan wasn’t saying your post was an example of Corbynism but an example of arguments that Corbyn had argued the Stay side should stop because they are 'histrionic, myth making'. I don't think though that just saying that, as he did, amounts to an argument.

[L.A.]

Jakswan wasn’t saying your post was an example of Corbynism but an example of arguments that Corbyn had argued the Stay side should stop because they are 'histrionic, myth making'. I don't think though that just saying that, as he did, amounts to an argument.

That's as maybe, but he fails to explain his criticism.

It is not 'histrionic' to point out obvious dangers.