The result of the EU referendum:

[Rhiannon]

Living in a farming area what I know farmers do struggle with and would wish to see an end of is the red tape.

[Nearly Sane]

There we are then, that's clear

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/listen-the-bbc-finally-asked-the-vote-leave-campaign-about-their-spending-plans-and-it-was-very-revealing/

[Rhiannon]

Interesting stats here on the migration claims of both Migrationwatch and Vote Leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36517971

[ProfessorDavey]

Living in a farming area what I know farmers do struggle with and would wish to see an end of is the red tape.

Whenever their is government subsidy or other payment there will be red tape - for the simple reason that the government is accountable to its tax payers for spending their money. So if someone else is getting it (whether a farmer, a nursery offering free child care, a government funded research grant) etc the government will require the recipient to jump through significant hoops to justify that spending.

And it is exactly the same with the UK government as with the EU - indeed I use the latter 2 examples as they are areas of my own experience. Actually on the last I've had money from both EU and UK government-funded research grants. Both are associated with very significant red tape - is the EU worse, nope - actually in my experience the red tape surrounding UK funded research is greater than that surrounding EU funding.

[jakswan]

I don't understand the Labour position 'we want to stay in a reformed EU' surely then vote Brexit since the EU will likely then renegotiate.

If they don't renegotiate then the EU won't reform and vote leave is the right move anyway.

[jakswan]

Living in a farming area what I know farmers do struggle with and would wish to see an end of is the red tape.

I think it needs reform you get paid if own land.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17225652

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpexuu_yannick-naud-sur-bbc-panorama-bbc1-scotland-money-farmers-les-abus-de-la-pac-en-ecosse_news

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't understand the Labour position 'we want to stay in a reformed EU' surely then vote Brexit since the EU will likely then renegotiate.

If they don't renegotiate then the EU won't reform and vote leave is the right move anyway.

If you vote Brexit we leave, that's the deal.

You now seem to be slinking into the vote Brexit get remain non-sense. A bit like the myth that prior to INdyref that voting for independence would result in Scotland remaining in the UK but with greater devolved powers.

It is disingenuous.

[jakswan]

If you vote Brexit we leave, that's the deal.

No its not as simple as that, I think we should leave, I'd be quite happy to remain in a reformed EU

You now seem to be slinking into the vote Brexit get remain non-sense. A bit like the myth that prior to INdyref that voting for independence would result in Scotland remaining in the UK but with greater devolved powers.

Yes its quite possible that during negotiations for Scotland leaving the Union DevoMax would have been offered. As I recall Salmond wanted it on the ballot paper. Its not nonsense.

It is disingenuous.

No its logical, Labour say they want to stay in a reformed EU, if we vote leave the EU will either renegotiate, which will involve reform, or it won't, if it won't then it will never reform.

[ProfessorDavey]

No its not as simple as that, I think we should leave, I'd be quite happy to remain in a reformed EU

The best (actually really the only) way to remain is to vote for remain.

Yes its quite possible that during negotiations for Scotland leaving the Union DevoMax would have been offered. As I recall Salmond wanted it on the ballot paper. Its not nonsense.

So do you really think that the SNP would have simply accepted devomax had the INdyRef resulted in a Yes vote - or those people who voted for independence. Nope, of course not - had Scotland voted for independence, that's what they have got, independence, not Devomax. And the same is true in this vote - if you want to Brexit, vote Brexit and that's what you'll get (not that anyone has a clue what that looks like). If you don't want to leave the EU you must vote remain. It is mischief making on the part of Brexiters to suggest that the best way of remaining is to vote to leave - it is merely a tactic to 'trick' those who don't really want to leave to vote brexit.

No its logical, Labour say they want to stay in a reformed EU, if we vote leave the EU will either renegotiate, which will involve reform, or it won't, if it won't then it will never reform.

The EU is continually reforming - but the one sure fire way to have absolutely no influence on those reforms, is to vote to leave - you only have a say in the club rules if you are a member of the club. And whether or not we are in the EU it will have a massive influence on the UK - look at those countries that the Brexiters alway cite as examples of european countries that 'do OK' outside the EU - notably Norway, Switzerland and Iceland - every one influenced massively by the rules and regulations of the EU, but none have a say.

If you want the EU to reform you have to remain in it - otherwise you have no influence whatsoever.

[jakswan]

The best (actually really the only) way to remain is to vote for remain.

If you want to remain sure, if you want to remain in a reformed EU then vote leave is your best bet.

So do you really think that the SNP would have simply accepted devomax had the INdyRef resulted in a Yes vote - or those people who voted for independence. Nope, of course not - had Scotland voted for independence, that's what they have got, independence, not Devomax. And the same is true in this vote - if you want to Brexit, vote Brexit and that's what you'll get (not that anyone has a clue what that looks like). If you don't want to leave the EU you must vote remain. It is mischief making on the part of Brexiters to suggest that the best way of remaining is to vote to leave - it is merely a tactic to 'trick' those who don't really want to leave to vote brexit.

Dear me so black and white with you, I suppose that is what you get from someone who is dogmatic and completely unable to see that anyone else has a valid opinion.

For example you could have been a Scot who was not sure which way to vote in the IndyRef, and thought that the UK offered great security with its armed forces but wanted to make the Scottish Parliament more accountable, the SNP are blumin awesome at shifting the blame after all. So why not vote leave on IndyRef and if you got DevoMax been quite happy with it.

The EU is continually reforming - but the one sure fire way to have absolutely no influence on those reforms, is to vote to leave - you only have a say in the club rules if you are a member of the club. And whether or not we are in the EU it will have a massive influence on the UK - look at those countries that the Brexiters alway cite as examples of european countries that 'do OK' outside the EU - notably Norway, Switzerland and Iceland - every one influenced massively by the rules and regulations of the EU, but none have a say.

If you want to reform the EU then your best bet is give the government the strongest hand possible and mandate to leave if it doesn't negotiate.

If you want the EU to reform you have to remain in it - otherwise you have no influence whatsoever.

If it will it will reform the way to know that is to vote leave.

[ProfessorDavey]

If you want to remain sure, if you want to remain in a reformed EU then vote leave is your best bet.

No it isn't as if we vote to leave, that's what will happen, we will leave. If you want to remain, whether in the current state, the post negotiated reformed state or in any future reformed state, self evidently you have to vote remain, because otherwise we won't be in the EU.

It isn't that hard - the choices are exactly what they say on the tin - or rather on the ballot paper.

Vote remain - we remain
Vote leave - we leave

Struggling to understand why you are failing to get such a simple concept - or maybe this is just disingenuous mischief-making to try to tick people who want to remain to vote leave on the basis that we will remain. That is disingenuous non-sense.

[ProfessorDavey]

For example you could have been a Scot who was not sure which way to vote in the IndyRef, and thought that the UK offered great security with its armed forces but wanted to make the Scottish Parliament more accountable, the SNP are blumin awesome at shifting the blame after all. So why not vote leave on IndyRef and if you got DevoMax been quite happy with it.

If you were that person and Scotland had voted for independence that's what would have happened, Scotland would have become independent.

All I can say is that someone who voted for independence when they actually wanted Scotland to stay in the UK must be very, very stupid.

Likewise someone who wants to stay in the EU voting to leave - daft as a brush.

[jakswan]

No it isn't as if we vote to leave, that's what will happen, we will leave. If you want to remain, whether in the current state, the post negotiated reformed state or in any future reformed state, self evidently you have to vote remain, because otherwise we won't be in the EU.

It isn't that hard - the choices are exactly what they say on the tin - or rather on the ballot paper.

Vote remain - we remain
Vote leave - we leave

Not as simple as that I'm afraid.

See most people are not dogma driven and evangelical about this, I think Corbyn, your former parties leader, said he was 75% for in, I'm 75% for leave.

If you are around the 40-60% area and would stay in a reformed EU, then vote leave, if we don't get reforms then your not losing.

How do you know know the EU would not renegotiate? Guessing?

Struggling to understand why you are failing to get such a simple concept - or maybe this is just disingenuous mischief-making to try to tick people who want to remain to vote leave on the basis that we will remain. That is disingenuous non-sense.

No your clearly not listening, I would advocate people who want to leave should vote leave, people who to remain should vote remain and those that want to remain in a reformed EU should vote leave.

You might disagree which is fine, I know your intolerant of other views but your hysterical name calling really undermines your position.

[ProfessorDavey]

No your clearly not listening, I would advocate people who want to leave should vote leave, people who to remain should vote remain and those that want to remain in a reformed EU should vote leave.

You really aren't thinking clearly - the choice is binary, we are either in the EU or out.

You are implying some kind of bizarre Schrodinger's Brexit vote - one that simultaneously results in us leaving the EU and staying in the EU. That isn't possible.

If (on balance) you want to stay in the EU you should vote remain - if on balance you want to leave the EU then you should vote leave - simple as that.

[jakswan]

If you were that person and Scotland had voted for independence that's what would have happened, Scotland would have become independent.

Black and white from Dogma Davey , I disagree no need to get upset other people have different views. I think Scottish Independence would have caused issues for rUK and Scotland, DevoMax would have solved a lot of them. I'm not saying it would have definitely happened just suggesting it could have.

All I can say is that someone who voted for independence when they actually wanted Scotland to stay in the UK must be very, very stupid.

Again with the binary view, someone might have wanted Scotland to be more independent and the risk of total Independence was worth taking.

Likewise someone who wants to stay in the EU voting to leave - daft as a brush.

Yes but we're not talking about them, we are talking about someone who wants to stay in a reformed EU, if it doesn't reform they want to leave.

[ProfessorDavey]

Black and white from Dogma Davey , I disagree no need to get upset other people have different views. I think Scottish Independence would have caused issues for rUK and Scotland, DevoMax would have solved a lot of them. I'm not saying it would have definitely happened just suggesting it could have.

Simple question for you Jaksan (to cut through your muddled thinking).

If we vote leave do we leave or do we stay? We can't do both.

[jakswan]

Simple question for you Jaksan (to cut through your muddled thinking).

If we vote leave do we leave or do we stay? We can't do both.

We might leave.

Lets me ask you a question, when countries have voted against EU treaties in the past, what happened?

[ProfessorDavey]

Lets me ask you a question, when countries have voted against EU treaties in the past, what happened?

Straw man.

We aren't voting against a treaty, which requires ratification from all EU member states. We are voting to stay or leave the EU. The two situations aren't equivalent.

Cameron went and negotiated a deal with the EU - he could have held a referendum on whether or not to accept that deal. He didn't - he called a referendum on whether we stay or leave.

[Udayana]

We might leave.

Lets me ask you a question, when countries have voted against EU treaties in the past, what happened?

Usually the EU has found a way around the negative vote. However this vote is not an EU matter - but one for the UK only.

If we voted to leave, voices against EU membership in the other EU countries would gain strength. If we left, the EU could fall apart. To reform the EU we need to stay in and work with similarly minded groups in the other countries. That will not happen if we vote to leave.

[jakswan]

Straw man.

We aren't voting against a treaty, which requires ratification from all EU member states. We are voting to stay or leave the EU. The two situations aren't equivalent.

Cameron went and negotiated a deal with the EU - he could have held a referendum on whether or not to accept that deal. He didn't - he called a referendum on whether we stay or leave.

Its comparable, evasion noted.

[Nearly Sane]

If leave win and there is an attempt at renegotiating, the Conservative Party will self immolate.

[ProfessorDavey]

Its comparable, evasion noted.

No it isn't, not at all.

Where there was a referendum on a treaty that dictated whether a particular member state ratified or refused to ratify that treaty. If a member state refused to ratify the only option for the EU was to amend that treaty and then request ratification again.

That isn't the case here - if the UK votes for Brexit then there is no obligation on the rest of the EU to renegotiate. They can simply accept the decision of the UK and start the process of negotiating exit arrangements.

This is a vote about staying or leaving, not one about renegotiation of EU membership arrangements.

[ProfessorDavey]

If leave win and there is an attempt at renegotiating, the Conservative Party will self immolate.

Indeed - all this 'vote leave, get remain' is purely a tactic by leave to fool people into thinking that voting leave is consequence free - it isn't - if we vote leave we leave.

[Rhiannon]

Isn't this getting a bit weird now?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36537180

[Brownie]

Weird indeed  .