The result of the EU referendum:

[jakswan]

Dearie Me,

Five good reasons to vote leave.

Joey Essex is for leave.

Nigel Farage is for leave.

Boris Johnson is for leave.

Jakswan is for leave.

Jack Knave is for leave.

Pillars I tell you!! pillars of reason and intelligence, this is why I will be voting................. last one to leave the EU turn the lights off

Gonnagle.

Thanks Gonzo, who's normal contribution to a thread is inane drivel is at least consistent.

On your list should be:-

Ronnie Campbell - Blyth Valley
Frank Field - Birkenhead
Roger Godsiff - Birmingham Hall Green
Kate Hoey - Vauxhall
Kelvin Hopkins - Luton North
Gisela Stuart - Birmingham Edgbaston
Graham Stringer - Blackley and Broughton
John Mann - Bassetlaw
Dennis Skinner - Bolsover
John Cryer - Leyton and Wanstead

All Labour politicians or a former leader of SNP as I recall.

You'd know this if you had done some research and kept an open mind, dear me, Gonzo - research and open mind what am I thinking.

[jakswan]

Agree on all counts except Jakswan.

Apart from this particular issue he's always seemed pretty sane to me.

Why thank you likewise to you. Although I don't think you are insane for wanting to remain, I think you a different opinion, which is absolutely fine. Labelling people who you disagree with as insane is normally Gonzo's MO and really undermines your reputation.

But then he does seem to be talking himself into believing that it is OK for him to vote leave because we will remain anyway.

No, this is bordering on misrepresentation you can't still not understand this is not my position.

Please stop being dishonest it will convince Gonzo but everyone else will see through it.

[Nearly Sane]

Isn't this getting a bit weird now?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36537180

http://tinyurl.com/zm655lm

[Nearly Sane]

I never entirely agree with Alex but he's always worth reading

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/england-gone-mad/

[wigginhall]

I never entirely agree with Alex but he's always worth reading

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/england-gone-mad/

Very interesting.  I think  the idea that the world's gone to the dogs is quite powerful -  I saw a guy on TV complaining that Tesco's has Polish food in it!   Also, probably lots of people dislike both Westminster and Brussels, remote elites, and so on, and hallo, I can say fuck off to them both.

The fact that Leave is headed by a right-wing elite is delicious in its irony.   

[jakswan]

The fact that Leave is headed by a right-wing elite is delicious in its irony.

Yes Cameron and Osborne are so not that, oh wait.

[wigginhall]

Yes Cameron and Osborne are so not that, oh wait.

I thought that that was the irony. 

[ProfessorDavey]

Very interesting.  I think  the idea that the world's gone to the dogs is quite powerful -  I saw a guy on TV complaining that Tesco's has Polish food in it!   Also, probably lots of people dislike both Westminster and Brussels, remote elites, and so on, and hallo, I can say fuck off to them both.

The fact that Leave is headed by a right-wing elite is delicious in its irony.

Of course Leave are going to be headed by a right wing elite. Frankly the only people banging on about the EU and Brexit over the years have been those on the hard right and a very few on the hard left (but they aren't going to be the ones in power and doing the negotiations).

Brexit is John Redwood and his ilk's wet dream. An opportunity to roll back workers rights, environmental protection, public expenditure, public services etc and create an uber-free market capitalist utopia (as far as they are concerned) - one where those that have get more, and those that have not have their basic protections removed.

[ProfessorDavey]

No let me be very clear I'm voting leave

I can almost feel your hand twitching in the polling booth as you wrestle with your buyers remorse cognitive dissonance, and then put a cross in the first box.

I think I've played a part in changing some peoples minds as well.

Really? Where? Certainly, not on here.

No thanks!

See above.

Neither do you my friend, a former Labour member voting for neo-liberalism, could very well regret the outcome of remain.

I doubt it very much - I will vote remain without hesitation as I believe in the principles of the EU and I believe in the practical benefits that it has brought Europe as a whole, the UK in particular all the way down to me (professionally and personally) and my family. Long may the people of the UK continue to benefit from everything that membership of the EU brings.

[wigginhall]

Of course Leave are going to be heading by a right wing elite. Frankly the only people banging on about the EU and Brexit over the years have been those on the hard right and a very few on the hard left (but they aren't going to be the ones in power and doing the negotiations).

Brexit is John Redwood and his ilk's wet dream. An opportunity to roll back workers rights, environmental protection, public expenditure, public services etc and create an uber-free market capitalist utopia (as far as they are concerned) - one where those that have get more, and those that have not have their basic protections removed.

Yes, that's why I used the word 'irony', that a pretty right-wing Tory government has been outflanked by an even more right-wing Tory faction, which may provide a new government.   I suppose racism and xenophobia have done the hard yards for Leave, and this has sucked in working class voters apparently, who don't like fuzzy-wuzzies. 

Another irony is that austerity has made people fed up, and voting Leave allows them to express that, but it may lead to even more. 

[ProfessorDavey]

Well if this is true then the EU can't be reformed

I thought one of the main arguments from the Brexit camp is ... 'we joined the common market, not the current EU'. Which is true in the sense that the EU has evolved and reformed itself continually over the past 40 years. And it will continue to do so. Again this is another Schrodinger's cat argument - namely that the EU is at once completely unrecognisable from the organisation we joined while simultaneously being unable to change. Classic Brexit non-sense.

[SusanDoris]

/well said, Prof D.

[jakswan]

I can almost feel your hand twitching in the polling booth as you wrestle with your buyers remorse cognitive dissonance, and then put a cross in the first box.

Dogma Davey still even know not able to accept other people have different opinions.

Really? Where? Certainly, not on here.

Friends, family, work colleagues, I've never met anyone like you though. Most people are like Corbyn, a % convinced.

I doubt it very much - I will vote remain without hesitation as I believe in the principles of the EU and I believe in the practical benefits that it has brought Europe as a whole, the UK in particular all the way down to me (professionally and personally) and my family. Long may the people of the UK continue to benefit from everything that membership of the EU brings.

I doubt it very much - I will vote remain without hesitation as I believe in the principles of the EU and I believe in the practical benefits that it has brought Europe as a whole, the UK in particular all the way down to me (professionally and personally) and my family. Long may the people of the UK continue to benefit from everything that membership of the EU brings.

Voting for neo-liberalism, TTIP the first step on that road.

[jakswan]

I thought one of the main arguments from the Brexit camp is ... 'we joined the common market, not the current EU'.

Which is not an argument I have forward.

 Which is true in the sense that the EU has evolved and reformed itself continually over the past 40 years. And it will continue to do so. Again this is another Schrodinger's cat argument - namely that the EU is at once completely unrecognisable from the organisation we joined while simultaneously being unable to change. Classic Brexit non-sense.

So its willing to change but not willing to negotiate.

[jeremyp]

Project fear with rude bits....niiiice!

Address the point I made about the CAP if you don't want be called a moron.

[jeremyp]

Indeed. "You morons," "you idiots" and "fuckwits" does not exactly a sound and secure case suggest.

Especially when a search for "hominem' by the foregoing posters brings up several results. So it goes.

He's an idiot. Read back through this thread and you'll see that I and my fellow remainers have raised a lot of good points but Jack just ignores them and spouts off about project fear or the immigrant invasion or his fantasy world in which Britain Little England gets everything it wants.

[jakswan]

Yes, that's why I used the word 'irony', that a pretty right-wing Tory government has been outflanked by an even more right-wing Tory faction, which may provide a new government.   I suppose racism and xenophobia have done the hard yards for Leave, and this has sucked in working class voters apparently, who don't like fuzzy-wuzzies. 

The irony is that hand wringing lefties refusing to properly engage with a debate on immigration (as they label anyone who has concerns is a racist) has left the door open for the hard right to rise.

Another irony is that austerity has made people fed up, and voting Leave allows them to express that, but it may lead to even more.

I think what makes people fed up is politicians not answering the questions. How exactly will the new hard left labour tackle the UK debt? Platitudes and soundbites will not win votes.

Watch Daily Politics today first 20 mins or so, one tory one labour politician not answering questions, no wonder people are pissed off.

[jeremyp]

No its not as simple as that, I think we should leave, I'd be quite happy to remain in a reformed EU

Vote Remain than and campaign to reform the EU. If we vote leave and use the result to hold a gun to the EU's head so as to get our way, we will rightly be perceived as a bunch of cunts by the rest of Europe.

[wigginhall]

The irony is that hand wringing lefties refusing to properly engage with a debate on immigration (as they label anyone who has concerns is a racist) has left the door open for the hard right to rise.

I think what makes people fed up is politicians not answering the questions. How exactly will the new hard left labour tackle the UK debt? Platitudes and soundbites will not win votes.

Watch Daily Politics today first 20 mins or so, one tory one labour politician not answering questions, no wonder people are pissed off.

Well, I think Labour are completely incoherent, and have been since Blair and Brown left.   

However, handing power over to the right wing of the Tories seems bizarre to me; well, I assume that a victory for Leave will have this result.    With Boris and Gove at the helm,  and in an atmosphere of mounting xenophobia, help.  I am actually scared.

[L.A.]

Yes, that's why I used the word 'irony', that a pretty right-wing Tory government has been outflanked by an even more right-wing Tory faction, which may provide a new government.   I suppose racism and xenophobia have done the hard yards for Leave, and this has sucked in working class voters apparently, who don't like fuzzy-wuzzies. 

Another irony is that austerity has made people fed up, and voting Leave allows them to express that, but it may lead to even more.

The real irony is that the Brexiteers are being greatly assisted by the 'couldn't care less' attitude of Corbyn and co.

[Aruntraveller]

The real irony is that the Brexiteers are being greatly assisted by the 'couldn't care less' attitude of Corbyn and co.

I really don't think that is so - 4 weeks or so ago I was in Chester and Tom Watson was there campaigning to stay in. That the press choose not to cover the Labour party on this matter is more to the point.

[jeremyp]

Well, I think Labour are completely incoherent, and have been since Blair and Brown left.   

However, handing power over to the right wing of the Tories seems bizarre to me; well, I assume that a victory for Leave will have this result.    With Boris and Gove at the helm,  and in an atmosphere of mounting xenophobia, help.  I am actually scared.

If the Leavers win and David Cameron gets deposed, I think the Tory Party will collapse. I heard on the news a weaker two ago that some of the pro EU Torys in Parliament will side with the pro EU people from other parties and effectively block any attempt to start the process of leaving which they can do because, excepting party lines, Remain has a big majority in the HoC.

Another possibility is that Boris is only pro Leave because he thinks that is the easiest way to get Cameron's job. Once he's got Cameron's job, he will go  to the other EU countries and ask for a better deal and when we get one, he'll decide we should stay in. The Tory Party will still collapse.

As PD says, I think this is big trouble for the Tories no matter which way it goes unless Remain gets a big majority, which we won't.

[L.A.]

. . .

However, handing power over to the right wing of the Tories seems bizarre to me; well, I assume that a victory for Leave will have this result.    With Boris and Gove at the helm,  and in an atmosphere of mounting xenophobia, help.  I am actually scared.

That's what happens when you choose the wrong Miliband.

[L.A.]

If the Leavers win and David Cameron gets deposed, I think the Tory Party will collapse. I heard on the news a weaker two ago that some of the pro EU Torys in Parliament will side with the pro EU people from other parties and effectively block any attempt to start the process of leaving which they can do because, excepting party lines, Remain has a big majority in the HoC.

Another possibility is that Boris is only pro Leave because he thinks that is the easiest way to get Cameron's job. Once he's got Cameron's job, he will go  to the other EU countries and ask for a better deal and when we get one, he'll decide we should stay in. The Tory Party will still collapse.

As PD says, I think this is big trouble for the Tories no matter which way it goes unless Remain gets a big majority, which we won't.

The only thing that is certain about a Brexit scenario is that there will be a significant period of uncertainty. After the initial crash, the pound and  markets will be all over the place - it will be an awful environment for business (though great for speculators).

And if they attempt to go for Gove's fantasy of free trade with everyone in the world, the chaos will go on for a very long time.

[L.A.]

I really don't think that is so - 4 weeks or so ago I was in Chester and Tom Watson was there campaigning to stay in. That the press choose not to cover the Labour party on this matter is more to the point.

I've been totally underwhelmed by everything I have heard. Corbyn restated that he was Eurosceptic and Tom Watsons's comments about future negotiation to reform freedom of movement rules is just confuse the issues - it's such obvious crap.