The result of the EU referendum:

[jakswan]

I'm not sure what you are talking about NS.

The referendum will give us two choices: IN or OUT. If the electorate is stupid enough to vote for OUT, it will the duty of the government (whoever that might be at that point) to sort out the mess that will inevitably follow.

Of course hard-line Brexiteers do not want any kind of agreement with the EU - but there will be nothing on the ballot slip to that effect.  If less reckless government choose to negotiate a Norway type deal that would be quite reasonable and perfectly democratic.

There is nothing stopping the EU offering reforms and this then being put in another referendum. It is exactly what has happened with regard to treaties. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There is nothing stopping the EU offering reforms and this then being put in another referendum. It is exactly what has happened with regard to treaties.

Why would the EU offer reforms for a non member?

[L.A.]

There is nothing stopping the EU offering reforms and this then being put in another referendum. It is exactly what has happened with regard to treaties.

The only problem would be the fact that we would just have had a referendum that tied the government to leaving the EU. It would be difficult in the extreme for anyone to fudge around that. A Norway type deal on the other hand would be an option.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

By which time the press would rule the UK with the PM and chancellor being journalists and the establishment papers with their proven ability to control.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Brexiting is narrow self interest or a delusion.
No one I their right mind opts for unemployment, only those who gain personally might have a motivation and personal gain is not patriotism, To pretend or believe that the UK is an occupied country is sheer fantasy.

To believe that the Brexit leader Gove is nothing but a centralist and is interested in sharing control is a delusion.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not sure what you are talking about NS.

The referendum will give us two choices: IN or OUT. If the electorate is stupid enough to vote for OUT, it will the duty of the government (whoever that might be at that point) to sort out the mess that will inevitably follow.

Of course hard-line Brexiteers do not want any kind of agreement with the EU - but there will be nothing on the ballot slip to that effect.  If less reckless government choose to negotiate a Norway type deal that would be quite reasonable and perfectly democratic.

Yes, I know that it jakswan has raised the possibility of a renegotiation of the treaty in the result of a leave vote. I have been explaining why I think that won't happen. Note it's something that Johnson floated quite early in the campaign

[Nearly Sane]

There is nothing stopping the EU offering reforms and this then being put in another referendum. It is exactly what has happened with regard to treaties.

please god not another fucking referendum.

[Harrowby Hall]

Here's having a go....

The world system as we know it, biblically speaking, is Babylon... and the EU is part of that system. The statue symbolises just that.

So then, God says, "....come out of her, my people..." meaning come out of the corrupt world system (that some refer to as the matrix).... and free yourselves.

You know? I don't think that Sass will be missed during her 28 day period of transportation to the colonies ....

[L.A.]

Yes, I know that it jakswan has raised the possibility of a renegotiation of the treaty in the result of a leave vote. I have been explaining why I think that won't happen. Note it's something that Johnson floated quite early in the campaign

I suppose it's not impossible, but if any politician tried to overtly overturn the democratic referendum it would a very hazardous path in so many ways. Not even Boris could be that stupid (could he?). I don't see that happening.

[Nearly Sane]

I suppose it's not impossible, but if any politician tried to overtly overturn the democratic referendum it would a very hazardous path in so many ways. Not even Boris could be that stupid (could he?). I don't see that happening.

No, I don't see it happening either which is the whole point i'ce been making.

[L.A.]

No, I don't see it happening either which is the whole point i'ce been making.

But a Norway-type deal is another matter.

[Nearly Sane]

But a Norway-type deal is another matter.

And wasn't what jakswan was talking about

[L.A.]

And wasn't what jakswan was talking about

No, it was what I was talking about 

[Nearly Sane]

Brexiting is narrow self interest or a delusion.
No one I their right mind opts for unemployment, only those who gain personally might have a motivation and personal gain is not patriotism, To pretend or believe that the UK is an occupied country is sheer fantasy.

To believe that the Brexit leader Gove is nothing but a centralist and is interested in sharing control is a delusion.

This stereotyping and attempt to portray those voting Leave as somehow morally questionable just because they will vote leave is monumental Irony. That you have previously used the murder of Jo Cox as some implicit threat and comment on those who voted leave was disgusting and a besmirchment on her.

[jakswan]

please god not another fucking referendum.

Well if the reforms were good enough to convince the likes of John Mann, Gove and Johnson, etc it will be less toxic than the current one.

It might heal some divisions in the Tory party, the EU is not going to just stick two fingers up I'm convinced they will try to do a deal, despite Daveys assertions to the contrary we know him and other Bremainers will want a remain deal.

As I've said anyone who to stay in a reformed EU, vote leave, the EU will offer reforms for us to stay, if they don't they will not reform.

[L.A.]

This stereotyping and attempt to portray those voting Leave as somehow morally questionable just because they will vote leave is monumental Irony. That you have previously used the murder of Jo Cox as some implicit threat and comment on those who voted leave was disgusting and a besmirchment on her.

I think there of a great deal of dishonesty in the Brexit camp, in that they persistently do 'not tell the whole truth'.

While it is possible that Brexit could eventually lead to a prosperous future, the route would not be an easy one and there would be a lot of short-term pain, but whenever credible people point this out their predictions are just dismissed as 'Project Fear' without counter arguments.

[Nearly Sane]

I think there of a great deal of dishonesty in the Brexit camp, in that they persistently do 'not tell the whole truth'.

While it is possible that Brexit could eventually lead to a prosperous future, the route would not be an easy one and there would be a lot of short-term pain, but whenever credible people point this out their predictions are just dismissed as 'Project Fear' without counter arguments.

And this is related to Vlad's use of Jo Cox's murder how?

[Nearly Sane]

Well if the reforms were good enough to convince the likes of John Mann, Gove and Johnson, etc it will be less toxic than the current one.

It might heal some divisions in the Tory party, the EU is not going to just stick two fingers up I'm convinced they will try to do a deal, despite Daveys assertions to the contrary we know him and other Bremainers will want a remain deal.

As I've said anyone who to stay in a reformed EU, vote leave, the EU will offer reforms for us to stay, if they don't they will not reform.

You really think that that referendum which is based on ignoring the vote in this one is going to be less toxic?

[L.A.]

Well if the reforms were good enough to convince the likes of John Mann, Gove and Johnson, etc it will be less toxic than the current one.

The EU could never offer terms that would satisfy Gove, he is an ideologue. Johnson is more pragmatic and he would be desperately looking for a way out of the mess, but would he dare to challenge the democratic referendum result? A Norway deal would be his only sensible option.

And I don't somehow thing that John Mann will be part of the decision-making process.

[jeremyp]

'Babylon' is an urban word that means corrupt establishment, generally the police force.
However you say 'Babylon' is a word for the 'world system'
So the statue symbolises the people riding out of the world system, whatever that is, and away from the law?

Nah.  The statue is Europa, one posh lady of impeccable lineage and the Phoenician mother of the King of Crete.  She was, according to mythology, abducted by Zeus on a white bull.
Nothing more, nothing less.  Don't read more into it.  It is quite an appropriate symbol for the EU and very attractive.

Is it any worse than noting that Christians chose for their symbol an instrument of torture and death?

[Nearly Sane]

The EU could never offer terms that would satisfy Gove, he is an ideologue. Johnson is more pragmatic and he would be desperately looking for a way out of the mess, but would he dare to challenge the democratic referendum result? A Norway deal would be his only sensible option.

And I don't somehow thing that John Mann will be part of the decision-making process.

pragmatic, that's an interesting word for lying self obsessed dangerous wanker

[Nearly Sane]

Is it any worse than noting that Christians chose for their symbol an instrument of torture and death?

How does this relate to Brownie's post?

[jeremyp]

How does this relate to Brownie's post?

SweetPea claimed that the statue of Europa has unpleasant symbolism in her view. Brownie was raging against it and I was reinforcing his  point.

It seemed pretty obvious to me.

[L.A.]

And this is related to Vlad's use of Jo Cox's murder how?

"This stereotyping and attempt to portray those voting Leave as somehow morally questionable"

I was illustrating that there is some basis for questioning  the morality of the leave campaign.

[L.A.]

pragmatic, that's an interesting word for lying self obsessed dangerous wanker

Sadly a Brexit vote could see that 'self obsessed dangerous wanker' as PM