The result of the EU referendum:

[L.A.]

The family of a friend of my daughter's have had stones thrown at their house for displaying Remain posters.

My wife saw a Remain canvasser physically assaulted in a shopping street the other week - there are some very nasty characters around and they seem the be getting quite wound-up by the Brexit propaganda.

[Rhiannon]

I suspect there are knuckle-dragging idiots in both camps turning to agression and violence, sadly. Feelings are running high.

[Gordon]

My wife saw a Remain canvasser physically assaulted in a shopping street the other week - there are some very nasty characters around and they seem the be getting quite wound-up by the Brexit propaganda.

This, and the incident Rhi mentioned, are depressing.

It seems to me that we were bounced into this referendum mainly so as to sort out some internal dissent within the Tory party, plus the threat the Tories felt that UKIP were to them, only to find that it has had the opposite effect and has caused friction on a far wider scale. Since I don't recall much in the way of demands to leave the EU other than from an element within the Tory party this looks like a case of putting party before country.

No matter what the result is, and a great deal of damage has been done already, it seems unlikely that there won't be further fallout in terms of internal UK politics, since it seems to me that the wounds already inflicted are too big to heal by themselves and I suspect the negativity created by having this referendum in the first place will continue irrespective of the result rather than be resolved by it.

If it is 'stay' then I doubt the Europhobes will just roll over, and I doubt Cameron has the guts to get rid of this element from within his own party so it rumbles on, and if it is 'leave' who knows what changes this will have in terms of key people at the top or government without reference to the electorate, unless sufficient MPs trigger a GE. If the result is very close, with just perhaps a few thousand votes either way, then would this be enough of a mandate to proceed with confidence be it 'stay' or 'leave' that wins?

It will be interesting to see what the regional differences in voting are, and not just from here in Scotland compared to England but in different areas of the UK - it could be very divisive no matter what the permutations are.     
     

[Rhiannon]

That's nationalism for you.

[Harrowby Hall]

It seems to me that we were bounced into this referendum mainly so as to sort out some internal dissent within the Tory party, plus the threat the Tories felt that UKIP were to them, only to find that it has had the opposite effect and has caused friction on a far wider scale. Since I don't recall much in the way of demands to leave the EU other than from an element within the Tory party this looks like a case of putting party before country.
   

I have long thought this. Cameron has shot himself in the foot.

Whatever the result, Cameron will enter history books as the least competent prime minister since Eden (I don't mean the garden - but who knows?) and will have this debacle round his neck as well as the decision not have a commission into the UK constitution following the Scottish referendum.

But the Conservative party has been in a mess since Thatcher. The main qualification for a party leader has been that his name was not Kenneth Clarke.

[L.A.]

I suspect there are knuckle-dragging idiots in both camps turning to agression and violence, sadly. Feelings are running high.

I suspect that there is something in the Brexit campaign that strikes a chord with a certain type of person and pushes a few over the edge.

[L.A.]

But the Conservative party has been in a mess since Thatcher. The main qualification for a party leader has been that his name was not Kenneth Clarke.

Ken would certainly have been my preferred party leader, but as you say, not popular with some factions. He's getting a bit long in the tooth now (like many of us)

[SusanDoris]

My granddaughter (a thoroughly sensible girl, who will be voting remain of course) sent me this link to Prof Michael Dougan, a Professor of Law, speaking very well for the remain vote. Whether you agree or not, you will acknowledge his expertise and clear delivery.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y

[Rhiannon]

There are sensible people who will be voting to leave too.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,

I suspect that there is something in the Brexit campaign that strikes a chord with a certain type of person and pushes a few over the edge.

Never!! Really!! I suspect there are quite a lot of citizens that BREXIT have struck a chord with, I also suspect that they have quite a lot of good arguments for feeling that BREXIT could be the answer to all their ills.

What I don't suspect, I know for a fact that the answer to all their ills lie at the feet of the Tory party, not the EU.

Slightly controversial, but, what the Tory party needs regarding the EU is a Maggie not a David

Anyway, tomorrow the Brexiters will have their chance for their Independence Day ( has there been any cartoons with Johnson in a fighter jet yet ) I just hope that they realise, out or in, that we will still be stuck with old Tory ways of thinking, we will still be stuck with queues of immigrants, we will still be stuck with a failing NHS, through lack of investment and not because we have massive immigration, we will still be stuck with no investment in infrastructure, in short we will still be stuck with capitalism which is a busted flush.

To end ( and now the end is here ) I would like to thank every poster who participated in this thread, it has been a roller coaster of emotions but I am still for remain, Remain and Reform and I honestly think that Mr Cameron is the wrong Prime Minister to give us that Reform.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

There are sensible people who will be voting to leave too.

Indeed there are, but there is a nastiness in the tone of an awful lot of the propaganda - largely sourced from UKIP.

[L.A.]

Dear Lapsed,

Never!! Really!! I suspect there are quite a lot of citizens that BREXIT have struck a chord with, I also suspect that they have quite a lot of good arguments for feeling that BREXIT could be the answer to all their ills.

What I don't suspect, I know for a fact that the answer to all their ills lie at the feet of the Tory party, not the EU.

I'd certainly agree that the UK government and local authorities have a responsibility to provide service such as schools and doctors. If the population of an area is increased by migrants, this ought to have been anticipated by government and the necessary services provided.

Slightly controversial, but, what the Tory party needs regarding the EU is a Maggie not a David

I'll bet Teresa May could do a good 'Iron Lady' 

Anyway, tomorrow the Brexiters will have their chance for their Independence Day ( has there been any cartoons with Johnson in a fighter jet yet ) I just hope that they realise, out or in, that we will still be stuck with old Tory ways of thinking, we will still be stuck with queues of immigrants, we will still be stuck with a failing NHS, through lack of investment and not because we have massive immigration, we will still be stuck with no investment in infrastructure, in short we will still be stuck with capitalism which is a busted flush.

Let's just hope that they all slither back into the woodwork for another 40 years or more - though I suspect that it might just turn-out that Boris had actually been quite pro EU all the time 

To end ( and now the end is here ) I would like to thank every poster who participated in this thread, it has been a roller coaster of emotions but I am still for remain, Remain and Reform and I honestly think that Mr Cameron is the wrong Prime Minister to give us that Reform.

Gonnagle.

I don't think Cameron will be around for so much longer, what worries me is what might come next.

[jakswan]

This, and the incident Rhi mentioned, are depressing.

It seems to me that we were bounced into this referendum mainly so as to sort out some internal dissent within the Tory party, plus the threat the Tories felt that UKIP were to them, only to find that it has had the opposite effect and has caused friction on a far wider scale. Since I don't recall much in the way of demands to leave the EU other than from an element within the Tory party this looks like a case of putting party before country.

I think it was pressure from UKIP who were getting a lot of support from the electorate, as I recall had 10% of the vote in Scotland in 2014.

No matter what the result is, and a great deal of damage has been done already, it seems unlikely that there won't be further fallout in terms of internal UK politics, since it seems to me that the wounds already inflicted are too big to heal by themselves and I suspect the negativity created by having this referendum in the first place will continue irrespective of the result rather than be resolved by it.

I think there are hardcore leave \ remain supporters who won't accept the result, personally I think the issue will be done for a generation (that is not a Sturgeon type promise).

If it is 'stay' then I doubt the Europhobes will just roll over, and I doubt Cameron has the guts to get rid of this element from within his own party so it rumbles on, and if it is 'leave' who knows what changes this will have in terms of key people at the top or government without reference to the electorate, unless sufficient MPs trigger a GE. If the result is very close, with just perhaps a few thousand votes either way, then would this be enough of a mandate to proceed with confidence be it 'stay' or 'leave' that wins?

Not really a case that Cameron could get rid of the Euro-skeptics within his party since much of the support for the Tory party is itself Euro-skeptic. 

It will be interesting to see what the regional differences in voting are, and not just from here in Scotland compared to England but in different areas of the UK - it could be very divisive no matter what the permutations are.     

London & Scotland will be for in, not aware of any other big regional differences, what are you expecting?

[jakswan]

I'd certainly agree that the UK government and local authorities have a responsibility to provide service such as schools and doctors. If the population of an area is increased by migrants, this ought to have been anticipated by government and the necessary services provided.

So do taxes go up to pay for these?

[L.A.]

So do taxes go up to pay for these?

Tax revenue goes up with taxes from migrants.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

So do taxes go up to pay for these?

Taxes don't need to go up, the tax system needs to be reformed, the big companies who use tax dodges need to be brought to heel, or do we pander to them, do we turn a blind eye because they bring in jobs, or do we finally say, stuff your astronomical profits, time you gave back to the very people you have made your profits from.

Or, or! here's a novel approach, scrap trident, give that money to the NHS.


Gonnagle.

[jakswan]

Tax revenue goes up with taxes from migrants.

I'm afraid it doesn't work like that, you need a lot of capital investment. Also what happens when predictions are wrong?

[Gordon]

I think it was pressure from UKIP who were getting a lot of support from the electorate, as I recall had 10% of the vote in Scotland in 2014.

In the recent Holyrood election UKIP just contested the regional seats and got 2% (and no seats), so here at least they aren't especially relevant - which makes the prominence Farage has in the UK-wide media disproportionate to the political situation in Scotland.

London & Scotland will be for in, not aware of any other big regional differences, what are you expecting?

tbh I'm not sure, but I suppose I'm wondering if the 'Leave' votes will win out mainly in areas where the Tories hold the parliamentary seats and also if there are notable variations across Scotland.

[L.A.]

I'm afraid it doesn't work like that, you need a lot of capital investment. Also what happens when predictions are wrong?

That argument could apply to any capital investment, but if the tax revenue is coming in it is reasonable for the government to make that investment.

It is generally acknowledged that the migrants 'pay their way' in terms of tax revenue against the cost of services - where there is a mismatch it is a government failure.

[jakswan]

Taxes don't need to go up, the tax system needs to be reformed, the big companies who use tax dodges need to be brought to heel, or do we pander to them, do we turn a blind eye because they bring in jobs, or do we finally say, stuff your astronomical profits, time you gave back to the very people you have made your profits from.

OK so how much and by what means will you tax say Google, Facebook, Microsoft?

Or are you just doing a bit of backseat driving peddling easy answers?

Have actually ever voted having understood the issue or just done it based on who you think the good guys are?

Or, or! here's a novel approach, scrap trident, give that money to the NHS.

I think I agree! I think Trident is a vanity project and the NHS always needs money, it only generates a few thousand jobs and Scottish taxes can pay for their benefits.

[Rhiannon]

I'm pro migration. However, there is an economic cost that can't be ignored. Many migrants come here to work for a certain period of time and live as cheaply as possible, sending their pay (after deductions) back home, either to keep their families or to be invested with the aim of purchasing a property or starting a business. The money that gets sent out of the country is money that isn't circulating in our economy. The question is whether the net benefits outweigh this.

[wigginhall]

I'm expecting urban areas to vote Remain, and rural areas for Leave, with some exceptions.  For example, I think Fenland will be resolutely Leave, judging from comments I hear, and voting Tory.  Too many Poles and Lithuanians working in the daffodil fields, you know. 

Interesting map:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-map-poll-live-latest-brexit-remain-leave-a7093886.html

[Rhiannon]

I don't get that. No migrant workers and the daffs rot. What's the point?

I love that we have a vibrant Eastern European community here, complete with Polish stuff in a dedicated aisle in Tesco.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

Yes, I am not very politically savvy, my thoughts on taxes, I earn a quid I am taxed on that quid, exact same for Google, Microsoft or facebook, these companies need us to make their huge profits, no get out clause for them, they pay the exact same as me.

Gonnagle.

[wigginhall]

I don't get that. No migrant workers and the daffs rot. What's the point?

I love that we have a vibrant Eastern European community here, complete with Polish stuff in a dedicated aisle in Tesco.

It's not meant to be rational, is it?  I saw a guy on TV who said,  yeah, Leave, and then whispered in a horrified tone, 'you know they have Polish food in the local Tesco's', as if that settled the matter.

Possibly another factor - areas without much migration may vote Leave, on the principle that we don't like what we don't have.   I'm not sure if it's correct that UKIP get a bigger vote, the fewer migrants there are, but it is often touted.