The result of the EU referendum:

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No in 2014 they had a temporary permission from Westminster  to hold an independance referendum

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

The power is held at Westminster on anything that effects the constitution and union.

Scotland cannot hold a second referendum on independance without approval from Westmister.

Which is why in one of my links Nicola Sturgeon says she thought it unlikely Westmister would refuse.

Well they can.

And that goes for the EU referendum.
It would be the ultimate act of English imperialism to refuse a referendum and yet another guff reason for Brexit...sanctimonious waffle about sovereignty....would unravel.

[jeremyp]

I disagree and I think it is what will happen. I don't think there is much point in debating further your asserting things will happen which you can't possibly know.

Everyone's a loser if we get a Norway deal because

a) we are out of the EU and no longer part of the shared future which means Remainers have lost

b) a Norway-like deal will mean we still do not have control over EU citizens coming here and we will still be paying our membership fee. So the Leavers will have lost.

Note, this is not me trying to make prophecy, it is me telling you what the facts will be in the event of one particular future possibility.

[jeremyp]

Jeremy is unable to accept its going to happen.

He's in denial.

Fuck off.

[jeremyp]

Westminster can refuse to give permission ( see links above) and I think they should.

That would be pouring petrol on the flames.

[Gordon]

Westminster can refuse to give permission ( see links above) and I think they should.

ATM there is enough to cope with

Scotland voted in, so that's that.

That was then - this is now, and thanks mainly to voters (but not all of them) in England and Wales we are being dragged out of the EU against the wishes of the clear majority here in Scotland. It is particularly galling that faced with this calamity the main concern elsewhere in the UK right now seems to be on who will lead the Labour and Tory parties in Westminster.

So, unsurprisingly, some of us here in Scotland aren't particularly concerned about what voters in England and Wales might think about our situation or the desire of some of us to leave the UK, especially given the damage some of them have done to it, or will look kindly on any attempts to constrain our option to leave a UK that no longer represents the consensus of our views!

Over the last few days things have fundamentally changed compared to the situation in 2014, and for anyone to pretend otherwise is head-in-the-sand stupidity. 

[jakswan]

Everyone's a loser if we get a Norway deal because

a) we are out of the EU and no longer part of the shared future which means Remainers have lost

b) a Norway-like deal will mean we still do not have control over EU citizens coming here and we will still be paying our membership fee. So the Leavers will have lost.

Note, this is not me trying to make prophecy, it is me telling you what the facts will be in the event of one particular future possibility.

I don't think its accurate to describe positions based on winning or losing. I was for Brexit and would be quite happy with a Norway type deal, for the reasons I wrote about earlier.

I'm telling you what i think and you are claiming I don't think it.

I'm advocating a Norway type deal, what are you advocating?

[L.A.]

Everyone's a loser if we get a Norway deal because

a) we are out of the EU and no longer part of the shared future which means Remainers have lost

b) a Norway-like deal will mean we still do not have control over EU citizens coming here and we will still be paying our membership fee. So the Leavers will have lost.

Note, this is not me trying to make prophecy, it is me telling you what the facts will be in the event of one particular future possibility.

While I agree with the points you make, I suspect that the alternatives will be even worse.

[jakswan]

That was then - this is now, and thanks mainly to voters (but not all of them) in England and Wales we are being dragged out of the EU against the wishes of the clear majority here in Scotland. It is particularly galling that faced with this calamity the main concern elsewhere in the UK right now seems to be on who will lead the Labour and Tory parties in Westminster.

With all due respect Gordon Scotland is a population of 5 million. If Scotland leaves its important for people in Scotland, but who controls the UK is important for everyone in the UK.

Not sure there is much appetite for consuming more SNP whinging in rUK.

So, unsurprisingly, some of us here in Scotland aren't particularly concerned about what voters in England and Wales might think about our situation or the desire of some of us to leave the UK, especially given the damage some of them have done to it, or will look kindly on any attempts to constrain our option to leave a UK that no longer represents the consensus of our views!

I think a lot in England and Wales would quite like you to leave.

Over the last few days things have fundamentally changed compared to the situation in 2014, and for anyone to pretend otherwise is head-in-the-sand stupidity.

Agree think you should crack on and get it done, although it looks like Sturgeon is rolling back a bit now.

looks like the Spanish Pm is going to veto any moves she makes:-

"I want to be very clear," Mr Rajoy said. "Scotland does not have the competence to negotiate with the European Union. Spain opposes any negotiation by anyone other than the government of the United Kingdom.

"I am extremely against it, the treaties are extremely against it and I everyone is against it. If the United Kingdom leaves....Scotland leaves."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spanish-prime-minister-mariano-rajoy-opposes-eu-talks-with-scotland-a7109176.html

[jeremyp]

I'm advocating a Norway type deal, what are you advocating?

The Norway type deal is the best deal we can get now, unless we can find a democratic way to ignore the referendum result.

[Gordon]

I think that, unless Brexit is cancelled, we will have to leave the EU and that some in the EU won't recognise Scotland as a separate entity currently, while it is still enmeshed in the UK, is no great surprise (especially Spain, who have their own problem with the Catalan situation).

However, at the point Scotland isn't part of the UK then the situation is surely fundamentally different, and that is presumably why our FM was in Brussels this week.

[jeremyp]

I think that, unless Brexit is cancelled, we will have to leave the EU and that some in the EU won't recognise Scotland as a separate entity currently, while it is still enmeshed in the UK, is no great surprise (especially Spain, who have their own problem with the Catalan situation).

However, at the point Scotland isn't part of the UK then the situation is surely fundamentally different, and that is presumably why our FM was in Brussels this week.

That's about the size of it and there is no harm in putting down some groundwork now.

I'm truly sorry we, the English, have fucked you over so badly.

[Udayana]

The Norway type deal is the best deal we can get now, unless we can find a democratic way to ignore the referendum result.

If the best the negotiator can get is a Norway type deal (ie Freedom of Movement is still in force) then this will be seen as ignoring the referendum result unless either the PM was elected with a mandate to get such a deal, or the deal is put to the electorate in another referendum.

[jeremyp]

If the best the negotiator can get is a Norway type deal (ie Freedom of Movement is still in force) then this will be seen as ignoring the referendum result unless either the PM was elected with a mandate to get such a deal, or the deal is put to the electorate in another referendum.

No it wouldn't. The referendum did not ask the question "should we impose more controls on immigration". With a Norway type deal we are still out of the EU in accordance with the referendum result.

[Hope]

That was then - this is now, and thanks mainly to voters (but not all of them) in England and Wales we are being dragged out of the EU against the wishes of the clear majority here in Scotland. It is particularly galling that faced with this calamity the main concern elsewhere in the UK right now seems to be on who will lead the Labour and Tory parties in Westminster.

Unfortunately, Gordon, Westminster is where all the important decisions are taken/made.  Who leads the various national - as opposed to regional - parties is therefore very important for the UK electorate.

So, unsurprisingly, some of us here in Scotland aren't particularly concerned about what voters in England and Wales might think about our situation or the desire of some of us to leave the UK, especially given the damage some of them have done to it, or will look kindly on any attempts to constrain our option to leave a UK that no longer represents the consensus of our views!

Not sure what the exact registered electorate figures are for Scotland, but let us say it's 67% of the population of 5.38 million.  That's about 3.65 million.  73% turnout (?)- that's therefore about 2.63 million voted and 62% of them voted to remain - about 1.64 million.  That's not a particularly promising proportion in anything other than democratic terminology. 

Over the last few days things have fundamentally changed compared to the situation in 2014, and for anyone to pretend otherwise is head-in-the-sand stupidity.

Agreed; a minority of the Scottish population have actually chosen to vote for the UK to remain in Europe.  It would be interesting to see what a poll for Scotland to enter the EU would show.

Incidenatlly, if you look at the list of 400-odd voting areas for last week's referendum, the bulk of the leave votes came from predominantly Labour areas.  Perhaps the SNP ought to have been a bit more supportive of the Tories, Lib Dems, Greens and Welsh Nationalists   

[Gordon]

Incidenatlly, if you look at the list of 400-odd voting areas for last week's referendum, the bulk of the leave votes came from predominantly Labour areas.  Perhaps the SNP ought to have been a bit more supportive of the Tories, Lib Dems, Greens and Welsh Nationalists   

What on earth are you on about.

Scotland doesn't have '400-odd voting areas', in Westminster terms Scotland has only one Labour MP, and why should the SNP can be 'supportive of' other parties in a referendum that isn't based on party affiliation. By the way, we don't have any Welsh Nationalists in Scotland (thought you'd have known that)?

Even then I'm struggling to see what your point is, or indeed if there is one at all.

[Brownie]

Hope didn't say Scotland had 400-odd voting areas, he said:
"...if you look at the list of 400-odd voting areas for last week's referendum, the bulk of the leave votes came from predominantly Labour areas. "   
He was talking about the entire UK, not Scotland specifically.

If the majority of leavers hailed from traditionally Labour areas, then Remainers might well have more in common with other parties (including Plaid Cymru), if only on this issue.  Hope put a  after saying what he said.

That's my interpretation of Hope's post anyway.

[JP]

If the best the negotiator can get is a Norway type deal (ie Freedom of Movement is still in force) then this will be seen as ignoring the referendum result unless either the PM was elected with a mandate to get such a deal, or the deal is put to the electorate in another referendum.

Could be a get out of jail free card. Norway type deal = out of the EU as per the referendum question, but really just like being in so same acccess.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Could be a get out of jail free card. Norway type deal = out of the EU as per the referendum question, but really just like being in so same acccess.

When things bite there will be more regrexit because you cant odds having what you've had one week and fuck all the next.

[Gordon]

When things bite there will be more regrexit because you cant odds having what you've had one week and fuck all the next.

You'd have thought - given that the campaign was so vitriolic and full of misinformation, that the result was unexpected and was unprepared for by those who set the referendum in motion and that it has had the side-effect of seeing both the Labour and Tory parties in Westminster implode and be reduced to squabbling among themselves instead of dealing with the core issue of Brexit - that someone, somewhere, would step in and stop the current nonsense and start again.

That the last few days has been little more than a beauty parade of Westminster power-hungry uglies surely suggests that where we are now isn't where we planned to be, or where we want to be.   

[jakswan]

That the last few days has been little more than a beauty parade of Westminster power-hungry uglies surely suggests that where we are now isn't where we planned to be, or where we want to be.   

Sturgeon has been on parade as well, she might be "fan dabby dozy" but pretty she ain't.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's been seven days since Britain was given the key to the drinks cabinet and drugs trolley. Some are getting high on what they found. Others are  smashing up the furniture for a fire in the front room in order to smoke out the neighbours who have their washing out..............That'll teach them.

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting article


http://infacts.org/second-referendum-probably-legally-required/

[SusanDoris]

I blame Hope's prayer groups.

I'd certainly be interested to hear what the believers think God wanted the result of the referendum to be!!!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Susan,

Funny but I never consulted God over the Referendum, I think the answer to my prayers would have been, are you bloody stupid son, take a look at the mess the Tories have made, the people of your nation are sick to death of austerity, they are going to vote leave in protest, of course they will not blame the real culprits for their suffering but will point the finger at the weak and innocent.

I suppose, like the prophets of old all the signs were there, greed, hatred, poverty, but then hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'd certainly be interested to hear what the believers think God wanted the result of the referendum to be!!!

....And I would like to hear what secular humanists and their fellow travellers think of secular Britain at the moment.

Has it turned out to be a paradise of inevitable human progress?