Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

OK, so maybe it is just coincidence.  All the knowledge we have built up regarding neural correlates is all red herring because thoughts are actually enjoyed by a soul which does not show up because it is made of immaterial supernatural stuff. So what exactly is the point in having all that frontal cortex stuff if a soul can think on its own accord by its own magic methods  ?

I said it was correlation, not coincidence.  Information from the activity in the frontal cortex may well be perceived by the soul, but there is no definition for how electro chemical activity gets translated into thoughts and mental images.  And the soul may not be restricted to brain activity alone.  Spiritual insights may well come from a different source.

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2014/10/07-worlds-largest-near-death-experiences-study.page

[Alan Burns]

Influence?
In what way?

Only our Creator can answer this.

[Leonard James]

Only our Creator can answer this.

I don't think there's any hope of that, Alan, but hopefully science will unravel the mystery ... it has a good track record.

[Alan Burns]

Here is an interesting clip from the Guardian, quoting an interview with Sam Parnia, instigator of the recent investigation into NDE's


Parnia has been collecting detailed accounts of these experiences for four years. I ask what conclusions he has drawn.

He suggests he is agnostic about the source of these subjective memories, as he is about questions of mind and matter. "When I first got interested in these mind/body questions, I was astonished to find that no one had even begun to put forward a theory about exactly how neurons in the brain can generate thoughts," he says. "We always assume that all scientists believe the brain produces the mind, but in fact there are plenty who are not certain of that. Even prominent neuroscientists, such as Sir John Eccles, a Nobel prizewinner, believe that we are never going to understand mind through neuronal activity. All I can say is what I have observed from my work. It seems that when consciousness shuts down in death, psyche, or soul – by which I don't mean ghosts, I mean your individual self – persists for a least those hours before you are resuscitated. From which we might justifiably begin to conclude that the brain is acting as an intermediary to manifest your idea of soul or self but it may not be the source or originator of it… I think that the evidence is beginning to suggest that we should keep open our minds to the possibility that memory, while obviously a scientific entity of some kind – I'm not saying it is magic or anything like that – is not neuronal."

Does he have a religious faith?

"No," he says, "and I don't have any religious way into this. But what I do know is that every area of inquiry that used to be tackled by religion or philosophy is now tackled and explained by science.

[Alan Burns]

I don't think there's any hope of that, Alan, but hopefully science will unravel the mystery ... it has a good track record.

I have no doubt that science will make great inroads into finding out how things work, but this alone does not eliminate the need for a maker of those things.

[Leonard James]

Here is an interesting clip from the Guardian, quoting an interview with Sam Parnia, instigator of the recent investigation into NDE's


Parnia has been collecting detailed accounts of these experiences for four years. I ask what conclusions he has drawn.

He suggests he is agnostic about the source of these subjective memories, as he is about questions of mind and matter. "When I first got interested in these mind/body questions, I was astonished to find that no one had even begun to put forward a theory about exactly how neurons in the brain can generate thoughts," he says. "We always assume that all scientists believe the brain produces the mind, but in fact there are plenty who are not certain of that. Even prominent neuroscientists, such as Sir John Eccles, a Nobel prizewinner, believe that we are never going to understand mind through neuronal activity. All I can say is what I have observed from my work. It seems that when consciousness shuts down in death, psyche, or soul – by which I don't mean ghosts, I mean your individual self – persists for a least those hours before you are resuscitated. From which we might justifiably begin to conclude that the brain is acting as an intermediary to manifest your idea of soul or self but it may not be the source or originator of it… I think that the evidence is beginning to suggest that we should keep open our minds to the possibility that memory, while obviously a scientific entity of some kind – I'm not saying it is magic or anything like that – is not neuronal."

Does he have a religious faith?

"No," he says, "and I don't have any religious way into this. But what I do know is that every area of inquiry that used to be tackled by religion or philosophy is now tackled and explained by science.

I believe the subconscious can still produce NDE experiences even though no brain activity can be observed.

[Leonard James]

I have no doubt that science will make great inroads into finding out how things work, but this alone does not eliminate the need for a maker of those things.

Nevertheless, until and unless science finds an answer, all claims of knowledge of the cause of the universe are nothing but guesses.

[Alan Burns]

Interesting quote from Sir John Eccles:

"I maintain that the human mystery is incredibly demeaned by scientific reductionism, with its claim in promissory materialism to account eventually for all of the spiritual world in terms of patterns of neuronal activity. This belief must be classed as a superstition. . . . we have to recognize that we are spiritual beings with souls existing in a spiritual world as well as material beings with bodies and brains existing in a material world." --Evolution of the Brain, Creation of the Self, p. 241

[torridon]

I said it was correlation, not coincidence.  Information from the activity in the frontal cortex may well be perceived by the soul, but there is no definition for how electro chemical activity gets translated into thoughts and mental images.  And the soul may not be restricted to brain activity alone.  Spiritual insights may well come from a different source.

So if it not coincidence, and it is not causation, what is the explanation for the apparent fidelity of neural correlates ?

[torridon]

I have no doubt that science will make great inroads into finding out how things work, but this alone does not eliminate the need for a maker of those things.

And positing a maker of those things does not eliminate the need for a maker of the maker. In this sense, 'God' is just a traditional shortcut out of an infinite regress of explanations.  Just believe, just accept, don't ask questions, God did it, end of story.  Some of us are not so easily fobbed off though.

[Shaker]

Interesting quote from Sir John Eccles:

"I maintain that the human mystery is incredibly demeaned by scientific reductionism, with its claim in promissory materialism to account eventually for all of the spiritual world in terms of patterns of neuronal activity. This belief must be classed as a superstition. . . . we have to recognize that we are spiritual beings with souls existing in a spiritual world as well as material beings with bodies and brains existing in a material world." --Evolution of the Brain, Creation of the Self, p. 241

I like his cakes but he wasn't much of a thinker when he got onto issues such as these. I looked him up, and on his Wikipedia page I found, to absolutely no surprise whatsoever:

Eccles was a devout theist and a sometime Roman Catholic, and is regarded by many Christians as an exemplar of the successful melding of a life of science with one of faith. A biography states that, "although not always a practising Catholic, Eccles was a theist and a spiritual person, and he believed 'that there is a Divine Providence operating over and above the materialistic happenings of biological evolution'..."

I wonder if he provided any more evidence for his assertions and speculations than you have.

[Alan Burns]

I like his cakes but he wasn't much of a thinker when he got onto issues such as these. I looked him up, and on his Wikipedia page I found, to absolutely no surprise whatsoever:I wonder if he provided any more evidence for his assertions and speculations than you have.

Some detail can be found inthe last book he wrote:

How the Self Controls Its Brain is a book by Sir John Eccles, proposing a theory of philosophical dualism, and offering a justification of how there can be mind-brain action without violating the principle of the conservation of energy. The model was developed jointly with the nuclear physicist Friedrich Beck in the period 1991-1992.

Eccles called the fundamental neural units of the cerebral cortex "dendrons", which are cylindrical bundles of neurons arranged vertically in the six outer layers or laminae of the cortex, each cylinder being about 60 micrometres in diameter. Eccles proposed that each of the 40 million dendrons is linked with a mental unit, or "psychon", representing a unitary conscious experience. In willed actions and thought, psychons act on dendrons and, for a moment, increase the probability of the firing of selected neurons through quantum tunneling effect in synaptic exocytosis, while in perception the reverse process takes place.

It would appear that his reference to "quantum tunneling" may confirm my own idea that the soul interacts with the brain via quantum events.

[Alan Burns]

I looked him up, and on his Wikipedia page I found, to absolutely no surprise whatsoever: .....

But Sam Parnia (see earlier link #10422) also offers substantial evidence for the soul, and he professes to have no religious faith.

[Sebastian Toe]

It would appear that his reference to "quantum tunneling" may confirm my own idea that the soul interacts with the brain via quantum events.

...that still leaves you with he issue that the 'soul' does not reside in the material world, is itself not material, yet 'somehow' is in receipt of material information and also causes material interaction when 'causing' an act of free-will.

How does that happen?

Cue cop-out.......

[Alan Burns]

And positing a maker of those things does not eliminate the need for a maker of the maker. In this sense, 'God' is just a traditional shortcut out of an infinite regress of explanations.  Just believe, just accept, don't ask questions, God did it, end of story.  Some of us are not so easily fobbed off though.

But human thinking seems incapable of explaining how any form of existence came into being.

I think the divinely inspired author of John's Gospel comes closer to the truth -
"In the beginning was the word ...."

[ippy]

Some detail can be found inthe last book he wrote:

How the Self Controls Its Brain is a book by Sir John Eccles, proposing a theory of philosophical dualism, and offering a justification of how there can be mind-brain action without violating the principle of the conservation of energy. The model was developed jointly with the nuclear physicist Friedrich Beck in the period 1991-1992.

Eccles called the fundamental neural units of the cerebral cortex "dendrons", which are cylindrical bundles of neurons arranged vertically in the six outer layers or laminae of the cortex, each cylinder being about 60 micrometres in diameter. Eccles proposed that each of the 40 million dendrons is linked with a mental unit, or "psychon", representing a unitary conscious experience. In willed actions and thought, psychons act on dendrons and, for a moment, increase the probability of the firing of selected neurons through quantum tunneling effect in synaptic exocytosis, while in perception the reverse process takes place.

It would appear that his reference to "quantum tunneling" may confirm my own idea that the soul interacts with the brain via quantum events.

I would find it very interesting to see someone that can still exist with all of their internal organs dangling on the outside, I really feel sorry for you Alan.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

...that still leaves you with he issue that the 'soul' does not reside in the material world, is itself not material, yet 'somehow' is in receipt of material information and also causes material interaction when 'causing' an act of free-will.

How does that happen?

As you correctly indicate, the evidence for our spirituality lies in our ability to perceive and interact with the physical world, as both these properties will not be explained in material terms.  How this happens will remain a mystery until we find a way of investigating non material (spiritual) entities.

[floo]

But human thinking seems incapable of explaining how any form of existence came into being.

I think the divinely inspired author of John's Gospel comes closer to the truth -
"In the beginning was the word ...."

You are making a sweeping assertion, with no evidence, in suggesting the author of John's gospel was divinely inspired!

[Alan Burns]

I would find it very interesting to see someone that can still exist with all of their internal organs dangling on the outside, I really feel sorry for you Alan.

ippy

I agree that physical existence will cease in such cirumstances, but I would feel sorry for the person who did not realise that they have a spiritual existence too.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

It may come as a surprise to you, but we all have a Spiritual existence, you really should step out of this Searching for God thread.

Gonnagle.

[SusanDoris]

'non-material, spiritual entities' - ?
 That is a phrase that is, well, quite, i.e. absolutely, daft. 

[Maeght]

But Sam Parnia (see earlier link #10422) also offers substantial evidence for the soul, and he professes to have no religious faith.

This assessment is a good summary of what Sam Parnia's studies to date may be evidence for.

https://bioethics.georgetown.edu/2015/07/consciousness-after-clinical-death-the-biggest-ever-scientific-study-published/

[ippy]

I agree that physical existence will cease in such cirumstances, but I would feel sorry for the person who did not realise that they have a spiritual existence too.

I have a spiritual life and I don't need to turn myself inside out to have it, but at the same time I feel sorry for those soppy enough to think they have a supernatural/spiritual life.

But there we don't all need a security blanket.

ippy

[torridon]

But human thinking seems incapable of explaining how any form of existence came into being.

I think the divinely inspired author of John's Gospel comes closer to the truth -
"In the beginning was the word ...."

Ya, nice, but that is poetry really, not science.

[torridon]

As you correctly indicate, the evidence for our spirituality lies in our ability to perceive and interact with the physical world, as both these properties will not be explained in material terms.  How this happens will remain a mystery until we find a way of investigating non material (spiritual) entities.

But all creatures, not just humans, perceive and interact with the physical world; what is your justification for thinking that other animals don't have souls ?