Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

There is plenty of evidence that the devil targets some members of the church - particularly the Catholic church.  But that is just part of the battle going on between good and evil in this world.

No there isn't. You're perfectly entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts. You seem to be trapped in this mad, infantile, mediaeval Grimm's fairy tale of a world view that reduces complex human behaviours to simple equations of good and evil, determined by a menagerie of actors pulling the strings.   

It's utterly bonkers but you're so in thrall to it that any reason or evidence that undoes you is dismissed as the work of the devil or some such drivel.

Sad. Very, very sad.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

AB,

No there isn't. You're perfectly entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts. You seem to be trapped in this mad, infantile, mediaeval Grimm's fairy tale of a world view that reduces complex human behaviours to simple equations of good and evil, determined by a menagerie of actors pulling the strings.   

It's utterly bonkers but you're so in thrall to it that any reason or evidence that undoes you is dismissed as the work of the devil or some such drivel.

Rant and Assertion.
You are a fine one to talk about reduction.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

No there isn't. You're perfectly entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts. You seem to be trapped in this mad, infantile, mediaeval Grimm's fairy tale of a world view that reduces complex human behaviours to simple equations of good and evil, determined by a menagerie of actors pulling the strings.   

It's utterly bonkers but you're so in thrall to it that any reason or evidence that undoes you is dismissed as the work of the devil or some such drivel.

Sad. Very, very sad.

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

[Rhiannon]

There is plenty of evidence that the devil targets some members of the church - particularly the Catholic church.  But that is just part of the battle going on between good and evil in this world.

That's just a lovely get-out-of-jail-free card for you to play, Alan. Not Alan's fault, the devil's. Not the Catholic church's fault, the devil's. Not God's, the devil's. Looked at like that you have 'evidence' in abundance, because all the shit belongs to the devil, and the world's full of shit. Never mind the fact it gets people off the hook - and makes your God look puny.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

The problem here Alan is not so much that your mind is closed - it's that someone's locked it in a safe, chucked it into the Pacific somewhere over the Mariana Trench and thrown away the key. Nothing - no evidence, no reason, no fact, no anything that would show you to be wrong can ever be allowed to reach you.

And that's not a good thing. Really, it isn't.     

[BeRational]

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

Do you still claim to be open-minded or do you now accept that you are closed minded?

[ekim]

AB,

The problem here Alan is not so much that your mind is closed - it's that someone's locked it in a safe, chucked the it into the Pacific somewhere over the Mariana Trench and thrown away the key. Nothing - no evidence, no reason, no fact, no anything that would show you to be wrong can ever be allowed to reach you.

And that's not a good thing. Really, it isn't.     

... Please don't wake me up, I'm having such a wonderful dream.

[Khatru]

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

And in the event of you succumbing to this perceived evil, you can always approach your forgiveness-on-demand vending machine of a god.

You know what to do... just hit that "clear my conscience" switch and you're done - you don't even need money.  You can forgive yourself for the pain you may have caused others by simply muttering "Forgive me Lord" to the ceiling light and that's that, job done and you're free of blame.  Easy, isn't it?  You don't even have to say "Please".

It's probably not a good idea to trust someone who can clear their conscience of an immoral act by muttering to the ceiling light.

What about the victim?  Screw them when you've got self-absolution on demand, eh?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

AB,

The problem here Alan is not so much that your mind is closed - it's that someone's locked it in a safe, chucked it into the Pacific somewhere over the Mariana Trench and thrown away the key. Nothing - no evidence, no reason, no fact, no anything that would show you to be wrong can ever be allowed to reach you. 

I'd certainly like to see the data you have promised there is here Hillside.
Let's see the figures.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And in the event of you succumbing to this perceived evil, you can always approach your forgiveness-on-demand vending machine of a god.

You know what to do... just hit that "clear my conscience" switch and you're done - you don't even need money. 

Wait a minute.
Are you saying that seeking God for forgiveness is good if one doesn't get assurance of that?

I think you guys have the most effective way of wiping the slate clear.

A moral relativism which just allows you to redefine what is right and wrong! Bish Bash Bosh and Bob's your uncle? Find someone's crimes who are more heinous than yours (although how that squares with moral relativism has yet to be explained) and it makes you look like a moral giant....what more could you want.

I'm no Catholic but it seems to me that the smug antitheist description of what confession is is another caricature.

[torridon]

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

Don't be sad about it, you should be pleased that there are people who consider that ideas should be justified by evidence; this paradigm has given us a better quality of life in the modern world. If we all went around believing things for no good reason we'd still be grunting in caves.

[Rhiannon]

Wait a minute.
Are you saying that seeking God for forgiveness is good if one doesn't get assurance of that?

I think you guys have the most effective way of wiping the slate clear.

A moral relativism which just allows you to redefine what is right and wrong! Bish Bash Bosh and Bob's your uncle? Find someone's crimes who are more heinous than yours (although how that squares with moral relativism has yet to be explained) and it makes you look like a moral giant....what more could you want.

I'm no Catholic but it seems to me that the smug antitheist description of what confession is is another caricature.

Well, most of us 'guys' aren't criminals. We are generally aware of our failings and cock-ups; speaking for myself I know I tend to beat myself up about stuff and also try to make amends, directly to those concerned and through acting differently in the future, and I don't think I'm anything out of the common in that respect.

[Shaker]

Well, most of us 'guys' aren't criminals. We are generally aware of our failings and cock-ups; speaking for myself I know I tend to beat myself up about stuff and also try to make amends, directly to those concerned and through acting differently in the future, and I don't think I'm anything out of the common in that respect.

Seems like the norm to me, if anything.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well, most of us 'guys' aren't criminals. We are generally aware of our failings and cock-ups; speaking for myself I know I tend to beat myself up about stuff and also try to make amends, directly to those concerned and through acting differently in the future, and I don't think I'm anything out of the common in that respect.

No.....You guys are moral giants of course...........you actually prove my point by comparing yourselves with criminals and missing the overall point.

[Shaker]

Perhaps if it was a bit clearer nobody would miss it

[Rhiannon]

Seems like the norm to me, if anything.

Indeed. But morally inferior, apparently. Much better not to do that and go to church instead.

[Sassy]

Sassy: It sounds like clinical depression Sass, maybe not seeing children and grandchildren (wouldn't apply to a single person), but seeing everyone else getting on with their lives and unable to reach them, like being in a glass jar.  Everything in slow motion too.  The difference is that with depression, the glass jar also offers some protection so it's a no win situation.

You've conjoured up quite a picture!

Sassy: "Lock yourself away somewhere without your loved ones especially grandchildren then imagine those 5-10 minutes were eternity and you could see your family through the window all gathered together laughing and enjoying themselves and you could never join in with them again."

Why don't you just avoid/ignore certain people?  I have said the same to floo, only just noticed Len is joining in on it.  You and Len used to be OK, there was banter between you.  Life is too short Sass and none of you do any good to eachother by jumping to retort every time one of you posts.  It is so predictable too!  I know every time you post, a certain person will be quick on your heels with a meaningless one liner.  This person was once a Christian too, posting on forums has not done her any good whatsoever.  However we don't know what goes on in other people's lives, apart from the selected things they tell us.  That's enough from me!  I know no-one will agree with me  , I'm used to that.  See you later.

I have grown in my faith in the last month. Reached a new level and now seeing Satan attack in the realms that are not flesh.
I know that this will change again. Spent yesterday in hospital with my daughter had a grand mal seizure the first since 2005 but been seeing little signs over the years. On way home with cp worker but just earlier my brother telephoned. In hospital in wales one of his friends down for the weekend had a mini stroke. My son and I prayed for him and those in hospital like him and afraid. We also prayed for our family. When I heard a horn going off outside my house I knew something wrong.
Ran out my daughter fitting. I called on Jesus I held her in her seat and then I told her God was with her and she will be ok.
As she came out of the fit she was blue and eyes rolling into her head took over 30 minutes before back with us but I knew that she would be ok. But flashed back to the times we had so often nearly lost her when she would just stop breathing. It was like Satan trying to reinstill fear... but I trust the LORD for the changes in my life. The hospital they took us to was Hope where my sister died from a brain haemorrhage as you know and my Nephew died from brain injuries having been beaten to death.
My son was a great help went with my daughter in the ambulance whilst I followed in the car. I was crying because it brought all the trauma back and memories of being so close to losing Tabitha.

In the hospital we prayed for those we saw. Emergency code red and amber arriving all ETA most were 10 minutes.
Gods love is so big it really does not lessen or decrease because people attack other or call them names.
Gods love comforts and gives us hope in the darkest hours of our days and it does not change with seasons.

[Leonard James]

I have grown in my faith in the last month. Reached a new level and now seeing Satan attack in the realms that are not flesh.
I know that this will change again. Spent yesterday in hospital with my daughter had a grand mal seizure the first since 2005 but been seeing little signs over the years. On way home with cp worker but just earlier my brother telephoned. In hospital in wales one of his friends down for the weekend had a mini stroke. My son and I prayed for him and those in hospital like him and afraid. We also prayed for our family. When I heard a horn going off outside my house I knew something wrong.
Ran out my daughter fitting. I called on Jesus I held her in her seat and then I told her God was with her and she will be ok.
As she came out of the fit she was blue and eyes rolling into her head took over 30 minutes before back with us but I knew that she would be ok. But flashed back to the times we had so often nearly lost her when she would just stop breathing. It was like Satan trying to reinstill fear... but I trust the LORD for the changes in my life. The hospital they took us to was Hope where my sister died from a brain haemorrhage as you know and my Nephew died from brain injuries having been beaten to death.
My son was a great help went with my daughter in the ambulance whilst I followed in the car. I was crying because it brought all the trauma back and memories of being so close to losing Tabitha.

In the hospital we prayed for those we saw. Emergency code red and amber arriving all ETA most were 10 minutes.
Gods love is so big it really does not lessen or decrease because people attack other or call them names.
Gods love comforts and gives us hope in the darkest hours of our days and it does not change with seasons.

That all sounds so sad Sass. I hope everything comes out right in the end.
Love,
Leonard.

[ippy]

That all sounds so sad Sass. I hope everything comes out right in the end.
Love,
Leonard.

In spite of the differences in our views I hope you manage to get around what sounds to me, more than your fair share of troubles Sass.

I wish you well, ippy

[Sassy]

That all sounds so sad Sass. I hope everything comes out right in the end.
Love,
Leonard.

Thanks Leonard.. xxxx

[ippy]

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

Let's say for the sake of argument, your god does exist, I assume you think whatever it is that made the whole of you as an individual, would also like to think that you are using all of the things it supposedly gave you to the best of your ability.

Assuming I'm right so far about the the things you think it gave you, how come it appears you're not using the free thought and rational thinking you probably think it gave you to the fullest extent and applying your maximum effort, instead of falling back on, oh the devil did that for the bad bits and of course godidit for the good bits, that sort of thing can hardly be considered as thoughts that reflect or even mirror the beginnings of the thoughts of our great philosophers in the slightest way; bit lazy don't you think?

The post of yours above isn't one of your deepest reflections of modern life Alan, I don't think your imagined god figure would be very impressed, if in fact it does exist, something that's not settled. 

ippy

[Leonard James]

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

No we don't, Alan, that is why we legislate against evil actions. And furthermore we do it here and now, we don't wait to punish them in a very doubtful "afterlife".

Which do you think is the more effective?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

Indeed, as the Milgram experiment teaches us.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The sadness is that we underestimate the power of evil, or even mistakenly deduce that there is no such thing as evil.

By way of a coda, just to add that there is of course no reason whatever to think there to be any such thing as "evil" in the sense you imply. Sometimes bad things happen and sometimes people behave contrary to the prevailing sense of morality but to think that there's some kind of ectoplasmic stuff called evil just out there is akin to a four-year-old asking her dad to smack the tree because its branch hit her as she walked past.

It's just weird thinking for a grown up.

   

[floo]

I have grown in my faith in the last month. Reached a new level and now seeing Satan attack in the realms that are not flesh.
I know that this will change again. Spent yesterday in hospital with my daughter had a grand mal seizure the first since 2005 but been seeing little signs over the years. On way home with cp worker but just earlier my brother telephoned. In hospital in wales one of his friends down for the weekend had a mini stroke. My son and I prayed for him and those in hospital like him and afraid. We also prayed for our family. When I heard a horn going off outside my house I knew something wrong.
Ran out my daughter fitting. I called on Jesus I held her in her seat and then I told her God was with her and she will be ok.
As she came out of the fit she was blue and eyes rolling into her head took over 30 minutes before back with us but I knew that she would be ok. But flashed back to the times we had so often nearly lost her when she would just stop breathing. It was like Satan trying to reinstill fear... but I trust the LORD for the changes in my life. The hospital they took us to was Hope where my sister died from a brain haemorrhage as you know and my Nephew died from brain injuries having been beaten to death.
My son was a great help went with my daughter in the ambulance whilst I followed in the car. I was crying because it brought all the trauma back and memories of being so close to losing Tabitha.

In the hospital we prayed for those we saw. Emergency code red and amber arriving all ETA most were 10 minutes.
Gods love is so big it really does not lessen or decrease because people attack other or call them names.
Gods love comforts and gives us hope in the darkest hours of our days and it does not change with seasons.

Sorry to hear about your daughter seizures, can be very frightening indeed My husband had several major ones after his brain haemorrhage, they really did my head in.