Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

And what alternative explanation do we have for anything coming into existence?

Why should anybody need an alternative? We don't know. That doesn't make your favourite fairytale any more believable.

You haven't even got an explanation - you only have: this is amazing, it must be magic...

[john]

Those who believe there can be no existence without a creator only need to stop being lazy and ask just one more question;

"OK so what created the creator?"

That's the end of the story right there.

[Shaker]

I think you'll find they have a special dodge for that

[floo]

Those who believe there can be no existence without a creator only need to stop being lazy and ask just one more question;

"OK so what created the creator?"

That's the end of the story right there.

Ah but god was always there, that is the explanation.

[torridon]

As a proposition, the claim that all things we see around us are the products of matter and energy combined in complex ways according to simple underlying laws - this claim is quite modest compared to your position - that all these things are the willfull creation of some super-being with awesome powers that just exists out of nowhere with no explanation.

And what alternative explanation do we have for anything coming into existence?

We can always say 'we don't know, as yet'.  That is an honest position to take.

Quite apart from which, it is a fundamental logic flaw to posit something inexplicable as an explanation for anything.

[wigginhall]

As a proposition, the claim that all things we see around us are the products of matter and energy combined in complex ways according to simple underlying laws - this claim is quite modest compared to your position - that all these things are the willfull creation of some super-being with awesome powers that just exists out of nowhere with no explanation.  I think you need to get your incredulities sorted out.

This is very nicely put.   We are also used to scientific descriptions and explanations of stuff that would once have seemed beyond comprehension.   I used to do amateur astronomy, and the fact that the chemical composition of stars can now be analyzed via spectroscopy is only one recent development.  As Shaker says on this thread or another one, the stars also die, and from that, many of the elements in our bodies stem. 

I think AB's idea of an omni-God has simply lost utility.   It's not that it's impossible, but irrelevant. 

[wigginhall]

And what alternative explanation do we have for anything coming into existence?

Whereas you have this brilliant super-efficient explanation of stuff coming into existence, and you will now demonstrate to us, in fine detail, how God does this.

What, you mean to say, that you haven't a clue?   That is not an explanation, it's a sneeze by a gnat, in the middle of a storm.  Or rather, it's a guess.

[Rhiannon]

It's the fear of impermanence that seems to drive the omni-God thing. There's something rather sad about beliefs that result in a life half lived. That's how it is, if you have your eyes on a (most likely mythical) prize so distant that you forget to pay attention to the real life around you.

[wigginhall]

It's the fear of impermanence that seems to drive the omni-God thing. There's something rather sad about beliefs that result in a life half lived. That's how it is, if you have your eyes on a (most likely mythical) prize so distant that you forget to pay attention to the real life around you.

Yes, it's quite weird how Christians like Alan denigrate present existence - a meaningless blip, I think he called it.   Actually, my life is not like that at all.   It's like being offered shadows instead of substance.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, it's quite weird how Christians like Alan denigrate present existence - a meaningless blip, I think he called it.   Actually, my life is not like that at all.   It's like being offered shadows instead of substance.

What I was implying was that as a Christian, I can perceive my present life to have far more meaning than it could ever have in a purely material sense.

In fact, life as we know it could never exist in a purely material sense, because there would be nothing capable of perceiving it.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, it's quite weird how Christians like Alan denigrate present existence - a meaningless blip, I think he called it.   Actually, my life is not like that at all.   It's like being offered shadows instead of substance.

I suppose if you believe in an omni-God then the only way to make sense of suffering is to think that it'll all be alright in the end. To fully engage with the present raises questions that are hard to square with beliefs like Alan has.

[Stranger]

In fact, life as we know it could never exist in a purely material sense, because there would be nothing capable of perceiving it.

Yet another assertion without reasoning or evidence.

 

[wigginhall]

I suppose if you believe in an omni-God then the only way to make sense of suffering is to think that it'll all be alright in the end. To fully engage with the present raises questions that are hard to square with beliefs like Alan has.

In fact, Alan cannot fully engage with the present, can he?  It's the end that makes it worth while, presumably, so he has to think about that. 

[Rhiannon]

In fact, Alan cannot fully engage with the present, can he?  It's the end that makes it worth while, presumably, so he has to think about that.

Or it's the end that makes the present bearable. Either way it's avoiding being fully alive.

[wigginhall]

I remember reading some sermons by the poet, G. M. Hopkins, who was a great poet, and a Jesuit, anyway, in one sermon he kept saying that the ploughman must all the time be thinking of God, while he was ploughing.   And I thought, no way, keep that damn furrow straight, that is your spiritual practice, and let go of all other thoughts.   Now of course, they all have satnavs in the cab, and the tractor drives itself, lazy sods.   

[Rhiannon]

Well I'd look at the soil and see God, the flint and the worms and see God, I'd sow the seed and feel the sun on my back and think God. Why does it have to be anything other than what is there in front of you?

[Alan Burns]

Well I'd look at the soil and see God, the flint and the worms and see God, I'd sow the seed and feel the sun on my back and think God. Why does it have to be anything other than what is there in front of you?

What is in front of you could not be perceived without the gift of your spiritual soul.  Awareness of God and our own spirituality makes us truly complete beings.  We are made in God's image.  We are spiritual beings with a natural yearning for our spiritual home.

[jjohnjil]

What sort of god would only communicate with people who refuse to use the analytical, logical brain he supplied them with and instead follow the meanderings of Bronze Age Man.

[Stranger]

What is in front of you could not be perceived without the gift of your spiritual soul.  Awareness of God and our own spirituality makes us truly complete beings.  We are made in God's image.  We are spiritual beings with a natural yearning for our spiritual home.

Yet more baseless superstition.   

Do you actually have anything rational to say?

[wigginhall]

Well I'd look at the soil and see God, the flint and the worms and see God, I'd sow the seed and feel the sun on my back and think God. Why does it have to be anything other than what is there in front of you?

Sometimes, I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits, and sometimes ... 

[Rhiannon]

Sometimes, I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits, and sometimes ...

I may have very little brain but I still like talking about the thingish things.

[wigginhall]

I may have very little brain but I still like talking about the thingish things.

Yeah, me too, but also I need to sit.  It's a kind of balance. 

[Rhiannon]

What is in front of you could not be perceived without the gift of your spiritual soul.  Awareness of God and our own spirituality makes us truly complete beings.  We are made in God's image.  We are spiritual beings with a natural yearning for our spiritual home.

Shall I name those posters here that you view as incomplete human beings? Would you think about who that includes? Perhaps then you might just become aware enough to see what an utterly contemptible viewpoint that is.

[wigginhall]

Presumably, a lot of Christians think that non-Christians are deficient in some way.   If they are not, then why would they need salvation?   I suppose it goes along with the view that we are not good (a very Protestant view, I suppose).   

[Rhiannon]

We all need saving but Christians are smart enough to realise it.