Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Well, quite. A cleft palate that heals itself before people's very eyes, later examined by qualified medical practitioners in a hospital? This would be the front-page and top story of every newspaper and every TV news programme around the world. Facebook and Twitter and all the rest would be ablaze.

I Googled "Eleanor Mumford" and "cleft palate" and guess what result came up? I don't mind giving you extra time to think about it.

When you make shit like this up, you have to remember to keep it incredibly vague ("I heard ..." or "I remember reading once somewhere ...") and so light on detail that it's almost entirely detail-free. Unfortunately Alan forgot this and mentioned (a) somebody already well-known within her own rather limited circle and related to somebody even more famous and (b) a hospital where this baby was supposedly examined. Well, which hospital, where? Hospitals can be contacted; doctors, nurses and surgeons (etc.) can be traced and spoken to even if they've moved on to other hospitals or have retired. (Although, having said that, Alan alleges that this supposed event was "recent," which would make it even easier to investigate). People can be asked directly: did this state of affairs ever take place?

What I'm getting at is that there are ways and means of corroborating such stories, or rather of disconfirming them.

But of course you and I both know that for precisely that reason we're not going to get anything of the kind.

We never do.

Ever.

[Alan Burns]

God does not always answer prayers directly, but when He does, the result can be truly unbelievable to those who have no faith.  I have heard many genuine witnesses who can testify to amazing physical (not psychological) responses to prayer.  One of the most recent witness stories I heard came directly from Eleanor Mumford, (mother of Markus, of Mumford and Sons).  She recalled a time when she came across a young mother who had recently given birth to a baby daughter.  She tried to congratulate the mother on her new baby, but found that she was severely depressed, because her daughter had been born with several problems including a cleft palate which made the baby look particularly ugly.  Eleanor felt God asking her to pray over this woman and her child, but this was something which she hav never done before, but she took a step in faith and said a prayer over them.  The baby's face miraculously healed before their eyes, and when the baby was inspected in hospital, it was found that all the other problems had gone too. 

So here you have a personal witness - you can either accuse her of lying, say she was deluded, or accept the truth.

Provide the evidence of this assertion, Al. You're making a specific, concrete claim about a testable state of affairs.

It's not her I'd call a liar - it's you.

I heard her give this witness in front of two thousand people at Celebrate 2015 in Ilfracombe this Easter.

[Shaker]

And did she mention where and when this alleged event was supposed to have occurred?

[Nearly Sane]

If she prayed really hard could she get god to shut her son up?

[Shaker]

Now that really would be a miracle.

[Rhiannon]

Interesting that many consider Vineyard to be a cult, especially in the USA.

[torridon]

God does not always answer prayers directly, but when He does, the result can be truly unbelievable to those who have no faith.  I have heard many genuine witnesses who can testify to amazing physical (not psychological) responses to prayer.  One of the most recent witness stories I heard came directly from Eleanor Mumford, (mother of Markus, of Mumford and Sons).  She recalled a time when she came across a young mother who had recently given birth to a baby daughter.  She tried to congratulate the mother on her new baby, but found that she was severely depressed, because her daughter had been born with several problems including a cleft palate which made the baby look particularly ugly.  Eleanor felt God asking her to pray over this woman and her child, but this was something which she hav never done before, but she took a step in faith and said a prayer over them.  The baby's face miraculously healed before their eyes, and when the baby was inspected in hospital, it was found that all the other problems had gone too. 

So here you have a personal witness - you can either accuse her of lying, say she was deluded, or accept the truth.

Provide the evidence of this assertion, Al. You're making a specific, concrete claim about a testable state of affairs.

It's not her I'd call a liar - it's you.

I heard her give this witness in front of two thousand people at Celebrate 2015 in Ilfracombe this Easter.

Did she provide the hospital's account of the baby's recovery ?

[Alan Burns]

And did she mention where and when this alleged event was supposed to have occurred?

She gave a much more detailed account than I can recall.  It was just one of several personal stories she gave during her talk which lasted nearly one hour.

[Shaker]

So, having been told that a baby's cleft palate had spontaneously healed before the very eyes of those present, you can't recall if she gave details of where and when this event supposedly took place?

Did nobody else, hearing this tale, think to ask?

[ippy]

Searching for GOD...

Why?

ippy

To help you find your true home in Heaven.

Why's that?

Where's this heaven of yours?

Where is there any evidence that might indicate that this heaven of yours even exists?

Bit of a pointless pursuit?

Wouldn't it make more sense to see if there is any indication of at least some evidence that would point you in some direction or another but as things are at the moment without sufficient cause, such as  there isn't any evidence, why bother?

Have you considered looking for Peter Pan? There is equally as much evidence for Pete.
 
ippy

[trippymonkey]

Surely she would have used her 'power' to heal others too, no !?!!!?

What dya mean she never healed anyone else ?!!?!?!?

[Alan Burns]

So, having been told that a baby's cleft palate had spontaneously healed before the very eyes of those present, you can't recall if she gave details of where and when this event supposedly took place?

Did nobody else, hearing this tale, think to ask?

The people she gave this talk to were not sceptics, they were fellow Christians who would naturally assume she was telling the truth.  Such witness stories are not uncommon.

[Alan Burns]

What dya mean she never healed anyone else ?!!?!?!?

She prayed over my Son.
(He did not tell me what he asked her to pray for  )

[Alan Burns]

Interesting that many consider Vineyard to be a cult, especially in the USA.

Apparently not by the Roman Catholics who invited her to speak.

[Shaker]

The people she gave this talk to were not sceptics, they were fellow Christians who would naturally assume she was telling the truth.  Such witness stories are not uncommon.

Do you realise then that what you're effectively doing is making Christians look like a load of credulous fools who hear an absolutely preposterous tale and don't even have the presence of mind to ask a few elementary questions?

Does it not bother you in any way that this is the impression you give?

[Shaker]

Interesting that many consider Vineyard to be a cult, especially in the USA.

Apparently not by the Roman Catholics who invited her to speak.

Hardly a recommendation, is it?

[Alan Burns]

Surely she would have used her 'power' to heal others too, no !?!!!?

It was not her power - it was God's

[Shaker]

What dya mean she never healed anyone else ?!!?!?!?

She prayed over my Son.
(He did not tell me what he asked her to pray for  )

Always convenient, that.

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting that many consider Vineyard to be a cult, especially in the USA.

Apparently not by the Roman Catholics who invited her to speak.

That exact sentence could be applied to the RC church too.

[Alan Burns]

The people she gave this talk to were not sceptics, they were fellow Christians who would naturally assume she was telling the truth.  Such witness stories are not uncommon.

Do you realise then that what you're effectively doing is making Christians look like a load of credulous fools who hear an absolutely preposterous tale and don't even have the presence of mind to ask a few elementary questions?

Does it not bother you in any way that this is the impression you give?

Such stories are not preposterous to Christians who know that God can work miracles.

[Shaker]

Believe. Not know.

If you could stump up with some proof of these alleged events you could talk about knowledge. If not, it's a belief in a story that you heard second-hand from someone whose word you accept uncritically.

[Rhiannon]

http://apprising.org/2013/02/04/nicky-gumbel-invites-vineyard-uk-founder-eleanor-mumford-steven-furtick-bill-hybels-to-leadership-conference/

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Far be it from me to question your superiority My lord but I believe I have already alluded to my own and others confessed Goddodging.

Your own, possibly. That of others, I've no idea. To "dodge" God requires one to believe in God, that's the point.

Alas, Shaker you can even dodge situations to avoid exposing oneself to the possibility of there being a God.
Wallowing in mere assertion rather than engaging properly is one sign of this.

[Shaker]

Talk to Alan - he doesn't just wallow in mere assertion, he bathes in it, fills the kettle with it and brushes his teeth with it.

[torridon]

So, having been told that a baby's cleft palate had spontaneously healed before the very eyes of those present, you can't recall if she gave details of where and when this event supposedly took place?

Did nobody else, hearing this tale, think to ask?

The people she gave this talk to were not sceptics, they were fellow Christians who would naturally assume she was telling the truth. 

That says it all I think. An audience of believers, all wanting to believe, lapping up this narrative uncritically, noone thinking to verify the story with the hospital, all because your agenda is not to get to the bottom of a paradox and discover the truth, but rather to feed your faith, no searching questions asked.

Most 'miracles' take place in India, attributed to some or other Hindu god channeled through a holy man.  The Indian miracle worker Sai Baba has performed numerous unbelievable miracles under the gaze of witnesses, apparently, bringing dead people back to life, making things catch fire through will power and so forth.  If it was Sai Baba invited to address your Ilfracombe event, would you all have accepted his testimony so uncritically ?