Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3879198 times)

savillerow

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12575 on: April 22, 2016, 05:26:33 PM »
Msg 13053 AB "tangible truths". I despair. "If" just say "if" AB you find one. two, or three points in your life are right now being challenged so well that you might, just might have to alter your thinking. Are you scared that your life up to now might be based on shakey reasoning.So you cant budge an iota because your world may all come crashing down?
i know this is hard for theists to agree with but . . . .we are flying this planet.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12576 on: April 22, 2016, 05:31:46 PM »
Methodology is not ontology.

Isn't saying ''what faith says is indistinguishable from a completely wrong answer'' begging the question?
That wasn't said.

What was said was:

Quote
... your inability to offer a method of any kind to enable other to sift your faith claims from completely wrong answers

I'll leave it up to you to work out the difference between what was actually written and your version of it.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12577 on: April 22, 2016, 05:50:06 PM »
Shakes,

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That wasn't said. etc

Don't sweat it my friend - it's just Trollboy's standard mendacity. Bizarrely he's also got his "ontology/method" schtick ass-backwards in terms of objective truths but he's been corrected on it so often that I guess we must treat it now as just another lie.

Oh well.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12578 on: April 22, 2016, 06:00:20 PM »
Methodology is not ontology.

:-\    Keep thinking of some comedy parrot popping up and squawking "pieces of eight!".
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12579 on: April 22, 2016, 06:07:29 PM »
Some,

Quote
Keep thinking of some comedy parrot popping up and squawking "pieces of eight!".

Chances are the parrot would have a better understanding than Trollboy's of what these words actually mean too.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12580 on: April 22, 2016, 06:12:02 PM »
That wasn't said.

What was said was:

I'll leave it up to you to work out the difference between what was actually written and your version of it.
No, I'm pretty sure it's question begging.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12581 on: April 22, 2016, 06:20:24 PM »
No, I'm pretty sure it's question begging.
Your error, then.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12582 on: April 22, 2016, 07:32:32 PM »
Your error, then.
No, It's Hillsides. He loaded his statement in what could be argued as a sly bit of spin.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12583 on: April 22, 2016, 07:33:04 PM »
*yawn*

So you misquote a post - deliberately or otherwise - and then have the brass neck to claim that the poster who wrote it made a loaded statement with a sly bit of spin?

Are you serious?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 07:35:12 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12584 on: April 22, 2016, 07:44:26 PM »
*yawn*

So you misquote a post - deliberately or otherwise - and then have the brass neck to claim that the poster who wrote it made a loaded statement with a sly bit of spin?

Are you serious?
Is he?.............. equating faith statements with the completely wrong?

That's like equating non falsifiable statements (since many God statements are unfalsifiable) with completely wrong statements.

He equates them in that he says he can't separate the two....and a completely wrong statement is one that has been falsified.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12585 on: April 22, 2016, 07:56:22 PM »
Is he?.............. equating faith statements with the completely wrong?
He didn't. You did that, in #13056.

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He equates them in that he says he can't separate the two....and a completely wrong statement is one that has been falsified.
He said that without a methodology there's no means of distinguishing one from the other. They can't be separated without the method of doing so. Falsification implies a method of being able to do so - bluey said that you haven't got such a thing.

You could of course provide such a methodology, if you think you're up to it. You may as well be given the chance to fail just like everybody else has whenever they've been asked.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 07:59:29 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12586 on: April 22, 2016, 08:38:52 PM »
He didn't. You did that, in #13056.
He said that without a methodology there's no means of distinguishing one from the other. They can't be separated without the method of doing so. Falsification implies a method of being able to do so - bluey said that you haven't got such a thing.

A completely wrong statement has by definition been falsified.
Either you are continuing a category confusion he started or you have just become Turd Polisher by appointment to the court of King Hillside.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12587 on: April 22, 2016, 09:01:28 PM »
A completely wrong statement has by definition been falsified.
Well, if we're being colossally picky, strictly speaking there's only falsification so far, to date. Definitive, universal, once-and-for-all falsification takes us straight into Dave "scratch wig" Hume territory and outside the scope of the present discussion. But meanwhile back on the ranch, the point that bluey made, that I reiterated and that you seem still not to get remains: for an idea to be falsified is predicated on the prior existence of a methodology in which falsification is a viable concept, and you haven't demonstrated such a methodology. Test ideas/claims; have some sort of protocol in place for sifting the true ones from the false ones.

That's all bluey was saying. No heavy weather or big dramas or difficulty about this; it's perfectly simple.
Quote
Either you are continuing a category confusion he started or you have just become Turd Polisher by appointment to the court of King Hillside.
There's confusion here but not with Die Blau Meister, who is consistently a model of cogency and clarity (thank goodness his ongoing connection problems haven't driven him off the forum altogether - we can't afford to lose one of the best posters we have).
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 09:09:38 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12588 on: April 22, 2016, 09:36:05 PM »
Well, if we're being colossally picky, strictly speaking there's only falsification so far, to date. Definitive, universal, once-and-for-all falsification takes us straight into Dave "scratch wig" Hume territory and outside the scope of the present discussion. But meanwhile back on the ranch, the point that bluey made, that I reiterated and that you seem still not to get remains: for an idea to be falsified is predicated on the prior existence of a methodology in which falsification is a viable concept, and you haven't demonstrated such a methodology. Test ideas/claims; have some sort of protocol in place for sifting the true ones from the false ones.
That's all bluey was saying. No heavy weather or big dramas or difficulty about this; it's perfectly simple. There's confusion here but not with Die Blau Meister, who is consistently a model of cogency and clarity (thank goodness his ongoing connection problems haven't driven him off the forum altogether - we can't afford to lose one of the best posters we have).
So......... your duties as turd polisher extends to maintenance of their source

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12589 on: April 23, 2016, 06:13:23 AM »
- we can't afford to lose one of the best posters we have).

As opposed to the woolly-minded, clarity challenged posters whose loss would save us the time spent on deciphering their posts.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12590 on: April 23, 2016, 07:55:40 AM »
A completely wrong statement has by definition been falsified.

Nice affirming the consequent fallacy, Vlad.

Having been falsified is a sufficient but not necessary condition for a statement to be completely wrong. The implication is from falsification to wrongness, not the other way round.

Either you are continuing a category confusion...

And you still don't understand category mistake.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12591 on: April 23, 2016, 08:57:41 AM »
Nice affirming the consequent fallacy, Vlad.

Are you pulling these extra rectally?

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12592 on: April 23, 2016, 10:19:26 AM »
Are you pulling these extra rectally?

It's called logic, Vlad - perhaps you should look it up...?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12593 on: April 23, 2016, 11:01:52 AM »
Some,

Quote
It's called logic, Vlad - perhaps you should look it up...?

Trollboy doesn't do logic - he just lies about what's said to him and insults the folks who call him on it.

Nice explanation of the affirming the consequent fallacy by the way, albeit with an all too predictable response from you know who. You're right too to note that he's never understood the meaning of category error - discuss folk superstitions by referring to touching wood and to crossing your fingers for example, and he'll reply with something like, "ha, but one is touching wood and the other is crossing fingers, another category fuck...sorry to piss on your bonfire..." etc and tediously etc.

Me, I've decided to reply to him only when he doesn't lie about what I've posted. That was weeks ago, and he hasn't managed it yet.

Ah well.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12594 on: April 23, 2016, 11:31:40 AM »
I have often accused of personal incredulity on this thread.

But have you stopped to think just what is it that is being accused?

Is it a group of electrons whose behaviour patterns have been pre determined by "cause and effect" chains since the beginning of time?

Or is it the spiritual self awareness within the human body of Alan Burns?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12595 on: April 23, 2016, 11:34:55 AM »
Alan,

Quote
I have often accused of personal incredulity on this thread.

But have you stopped to think just what is it that is being accused?

Is it a group of electrons whose behaviour patterns have been pre determined by "cause and effect" chains since the beginning of time?

Or is it the spiritual self awareness within the human body of Alan Burns?

The first one (but not just electrons).
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12596 on: April 23, 2016, 11:35:01 AM »
Can we have more options please Alan ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12597 on: April 23, 2016, 11:38:37 AM »
Is it a group of electrons whose behaviour patterns have been pre determined by "cause and effect" chains since the beginning of time?

Are you made of electrons? Remarkable!

Or is it the spiritual self awareness within the human body of Alan Burns?

Except that such a statement is devoid of any real meaning. You might as well say "magic".

Remember; you can't explain consciousness any better, with all your "spiritual" waffle, than anybody else can:-

I admit that I do not know how conscious awareness and free will can work in the spiritual sense, but it does fit well with the religious concept of human beings having a spiritual soul, which is what I base my beliefs on.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12598 on: April 23, 2016, 11:43:43 AM »
I have often accused of personal incredulity on this thread.

But have you stopped to think just what is it that is being accused?

Is it a group of electrons whose behaviour patterns have been pre determined by "cause and effect" chains since the beginning of time?

Or is it the spiritual self awareness within the human body of Alan Burns?

It is the Alan Burns who misinterprets perfectly natural evolved phenomena as something else. That's all, Alan.  :)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #12599 on: April 23, 2016, 12:18:35 PM »
Are you made of electrons? Remarkable!

It is the movement of electrons through the neural network of our brains which defines brain activity.  But does this really constitute "Me"?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton