Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The source of creation has made itself known to me.

I don't doubt that you sincerely believe that to be the case, just as countless other believers in countless other deities think that they have been in touch with them too. Provided you accept that all you have is a personal opinion on the matter though, it's no-one's business but your own. 

There are many man made religions which have tried to seek out the source using human intellect, and thus get many different versions of the source.

All religions are "man-made".

The Christian religion has ample evidence for the source of creation making itself known to the human race.

No it hasn't. What it has is a book (or a compendium of books) that make claims to that effect, but that's all.

Many people I know seem to have a longing for fulfilment in their lives which is elusive.  We all long for fulfillment, it is part of what makes us human.  Some may seek this fulfilment with earthly riches and pleasures, but there is ample evidence that these earthly riches and pleasures do not bring happiness.

Well sometimes they can, but I take the point. Family, friends and shared experiences will often provide greater happiness than material goods. That's why most of us would rescue, say, the family photo albums from our houses if they were burning down rather than, say, the telly of the hi-fi.

[wigginhall]

Again, we get the different experiences of people.  Thus, AB: 'the source of creation has made itself known to me'.  Another person: 'the source of creation has not made itself known to me'.   Another person, 'the source of creation was disclosed to the prophet Mohammed'.  Another person, 'the source of creation is a nonsensical phrase'.  And on and on and on.   These are not arguments.

[ippy]

The source of creation has made itself known to me.

There are many man made religions which have tried to seek out the source using human intellect, and thus get many different versions of the source.

The Christian religion has ample evidence for the source of creation making itself known to the human race.

Many people I know seem to have a longing for fulfilment in their lives which is elusive.  We all long for fulfillment, it is part of what makes us human.  Some may seek this fulfilment with earthly riches and pleasures, but there is ample evidence that these earthly riches and pleasures do not bring happiness.

In God alone is my soul at rest.
Psalm 62

The source of creation has made itself known to me, a very slow hesitant, O      K, now taking your time Alan, how did this source acheive this, "making itself known" to you?

ippy

[trippymonkey]

OH DEAR - Here we go again ?!!?!?!?

[Alan Burns]

All religions are "man-made".

That is your personal opinion.  You have no way of proving this.

I would like to add my own opinion that all religions are a consequence of the way God made us, in that we all have a need to seek spiritual fulfilment.

[Sebastian Toe]

That is your personal opinion.  You have no way of proving this.

I would like to add my own opinion that all religions are a consequence of the way God made us, in that we all have a need to seek spiritual fulfilment.

You have no way of proving this!

[trippymonkey]

Alan A 'simple' question please...

How do you know or prove a 'god' exists.??

I'm not an atheist but not a Christian although I do sympathise !!

Nick

[Brownie]

Morning Trippy.

I do not honestly believe we can prove the existence of God.
St Thomas Aquinas famously produced "The Five Proofs";  I can't remember if they have been linked on this thread but I imagine Alan would have quoted them.

Faith still needs to be there for the five proofs to be accepted.
Others have asked why God does not make Himself clearly known so that one can believe.  Short of God appearing so the eyes can see, and speaking so that he can be heard with ears, in the same way as any human, no-one will be convinced - & I very much doubt God will do that.

My own experience was when I stopped all the angst, searching and worrying, one day out the blue everything fell into place and I just knew (or thought I knew as some others would say).  No amount of reading and arguing would have convinced me before that though.  I'd given up, really.  However I felt no animosity towards any belief system so in a way I was open or at least not closed;  there was no commitment on my part to proving the non-existence of God (sorry for a bit of plagiarism here, Sword).

We're all different, I don't particularly like talking about me but it seems relevant here.

[floo]

It is impossible at present to prove 100% god doesn't exist, anymore than it is impossible to prove 100% fairies, elves etc are figments of the human imagination. The probability is, even if there was an intelligent designer responsible for the creation of the universe, it is nothing like the one depicted in the Bible, which has very human characteristics and thought processes.

[trippymonkey]

Brownie
Excellent PERSONAL answer & Thank You for that.

Floo
You forgot to put DOES next to your 'doesn't exist comment.
And I most certainly DO agree with your last comment, DEFO !?!?!?!?

It really DOES beg the question - If we could discern a god then would we HAVE to be on another 'plane' so to speak?? NO 'flying'comments please !! 

Nick

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

That is your personal opinion.  You have no way of proving this.

You're right that I have no way of proving it, but it's not just a personal opinion. Religions fit well the model of a pattern and explanation-seeking species, there's of lots of them making a bewildering variety of claims, and there's no special reason to treat the one with which you happen to be most familiar any differently from the rest.

Probabilistically therefore they're all man-made, though that's not to say that it's impossible that your god, or the Norse gods, or for that matter the leprechauns would not turn out to be real.   

I would like to add my own opinion that all religions are a consequence of the way God made us, in that we all have a need to seek spiritual fulfilment.

Now that is a personal opinion, and presumably by "God" you mean the Christian God rather than one of the various gods claimed by other religions. One of the problems with that though is that many of of those other gods flatly contradict the characteristics claimed for your god. Why do you think that your god would engineer things that way, and how would you know that, say, Christianity isn't just a consequence of the way the Sumerian or the Egyptian gods made things? 

[Alan Burns]

AB,

You're right that I have no way of proving it, but it's not just a personal opinion. Religions fit well the model of a pattern and explanation-seeking species, there's of lots of them making a bewildering variety of claims, and there's no special reason to treat the one with which you happen to be most familiar any differently from the rest.

Probabilistically therefore they're all man-made, though that's not to say that it's impossible that your god, or the Norse gods, or for that matter the leprechauns would not turn out to be real.   

Now that is a personal opinion, and presumably by "God" you mean the Christian God rather than one of the various gods claimed by other religions. One of the problems with that though is that many of of those other gods flatly contradict the characteristics claimed for your god. Why do you think that your god would engineer things that way, and how would you know that, say, Christianity isn't just a consequence of the way the Sumerian or the Egyptian gods made things?

It is not the Norse gods, leprechauns, Sumerian or Egyptian gods that have made themselves known to me.  God has made Himself known to me through Jesus alone.  All the other "gods" are just man made attempts to satisfy their spiritual needs and discover a source of creation.  The truth of this will be blindingly obvious when you receive the gift of faith by accepting Jesus as your saviour.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

It is not the Norse gods, leprechauns, Sumerian or Egyptian gods that have made themselves known to me.  God has made Himself known to me through Jesus alone.  All the other "gods" are just man made attempts to satisfy their spiritual needs and discover a source of creation.  The truth of this will be blindingly obvious when you receive the gift of faith by accepting Jesus as your saviour.

And yet presumably believers in those other gods would also say that it was their localised god (but not any of the others) that had made itself known to them. 

They have their personal opinion, you have yours. What makes you right and them wrong?

[Sebastian Toe]

  God has made Himself known to me through Jesus alone. 

That is your personal opinion.  You have no way of proving this.

[ippy]

"All the other "gods" are just man made attempts to satisfy their spiritual needs and discover a source of creation".  The truth of this will be blindingly obvious when you receive the gift of faith by accepting Jesus as",

When anyone with makes statements like this, along with this way of thinking you could say anything you like is blindingly obvious when think you have received this supposed gift of faith, it even makes Blue's 'Tap Dancing Unicorns', eminently acceptable and it wouldn't matter who offered you the supposed gift of faith once you have decided to give up on reason and rationality in the way you have described so eloquently.

One of my sons is inclined to leave the freezer door open from time to time, amongst other things, that's it's how he is I've given up trying to understand the why with all of the ruined food etcetera, it's become blindingly obvious to me that accepting that's how it is with him brings me an overwhelming sense of acceptance of the inevitability of these happenings, like anything else would when we accept and give up on the reason and trying to rationalise why, it becomes blindingly obvious why, it tends to seem as though you've reached some sort of destination, so, in your case, a kind of conclusive arrival.

Sparky is quite obviously on an an equal plain to yourself or visa versa, the only difference, you take differing routes and end up in the same place.

ippy

[wigginhall]

I can't bring back the quotes that you cited here, but they are, first, 'God has made Himself known to me through Jesus alone.', and second, addressed to blue, I think,  'That is your personal opinion.  You have no way of proving this.'

These are from AB, and show the privileged status which he grants to his own opinions.  They are special, whereas other people's opinions are second-grade.

Really, this is because Christian opinions have been privileged in British society, culturally, in education, politically.   

So my opinion counts for more than yours!  This gets dressed up in fancy language, of course, and fallacious reasoning.  And people wonder why Christianity seems irrelevant to so many people.  Nearly every post by AB hammers home this irrelevance.   Intellectual and moral suicide before your eyes.

[ippy]

I can't bring back the quotes that you cited here, but they are, first, 'God has made Himself known to me through Jesus alone.', and second, addressed to blue, I think,  'That is your personal opinion.  You have no way of proving this.'

These are from AB, and show the privileged status which he grants to his own opinions.  Theiy are special, whereas other people's opinions are second-grade.

Really, this is because Christian opinions have been privileged in British society, culturally, in education, politically.   

So my opinion counts for more than yours!  This gets dressed up in fancy language, of course, and fallacious reasoning.  And people wonder why Christianity seems irrelevant to so many people.  Nearly every post by AB hammers home this irrelevance.   Intellectual and moral suicide before your eyes.

Wiggi I couldn't agree with you more on this; it'll be a long time before this privileged language always afforded to religion goes away just as the cartloads of all the other built in historic privileges should go too.

ippy

[SusanDoris]

Wiggi I couldn't agree with you more on this; it'll be a long time before this privileged language always afforded to religion goes away just as the cartloads of all the other built in historic privileges should go too.

ippy

ippy

Definitely agree.

*tangent* I bet if you looked on the internet somewhere there will be a little gadget of some sort which bleeps loudly if the fridge door is left open!! I could do with one myself actually,because I can easily not notice that the door is wide open.*end tangent* ]

[wigginhall]

Susan, there are modern fridges with door alarms, and I have heard of separate door alarms, although Amazon don't seem to have one.   I think the Alzheimer Society might have some ideas, as forgetful people do this a lot.

[Brownie]

It is impossible at present to prove 100% god doesn't exist, anymore than it is impossible to prove 100% fairies, elves etc are figments of the human imagination. The probability is, even if there was an intelligent designer responsible for the creation of the universe, it is nothing like the one depicted in the Bible, which has very human characteristics and thought processes.

Well, Christians believe we are made in God's image, floo, so it figures that God has human characteristics.  Now, the question is, do we have Godlike characteristics  ? 

[SusanDoris]

Susan, there are modern fridges with door alarms, and I have heard of separate door alarms, although Amazon don't seem to have one.   I think the Alzheimer Society might have some ideas, as forgetful people do this a lot.

Thank you - I phoned the local Electrical shop straight away - they haven't got such a thing, but suggested the disability shop on the other side of the road, so I phoned them and they're going to ring back!

[ekim]

The source of creation has made itself known to me.

There are many man made religions which have tried to seek out the source using human intellect, and thus get many different versions of the source.

.... and Christian dogma is no exception to this.  There are, however, followers of other religions who advise otherwise, examples ......
Huang Po the 9th Century Chinese Zen Buddhist Master:  "Those who seek the truth by means of intellect and learning only get further and further from it.   Not until your thoughts cease, not until you abandon seeking for something, not until your mind is as motionless as stone will you be on the right road to the Gate."
Hindu Upanishads:  " Let a Brahmin reject erudition and live as a child"
Sri Ramakrishna, the 19th C Hindu saint, : "So long as one does not become simple like a child one does not get divine illumination."
Takuan, the 16th Century Zen Abbot, "Zen is to have the heart and soul of a little    child."
Jesus, the Jewish Rabbi, in Luke 18/17 :   "Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child will not be able to enter therein."
The question, then, is - why do you complicate things with postal attempts at engaging the intellect of others when you try to use sub atomic physics etc to justify your claims?

[Alan Burns]

The question, then, is - why do you complicate things with postal attempts at engaging the intellect of others when you try to use sub atomic physics etc to justify your claims?

I have used sub atomic physics and quantum theory to illustrate the limitations of current science and show that there is plenty of scope for God's (and man's) interaction with our world.

I totally agree that you will not discover Christian faith by studying sub atomic physics.  My intention was to remove the misconception that science explains everything in order to allow God's holy spirit to enter people's lives. 

Our faith in God should be like a parent / child relationship where we are able to put all our faith and trust in Him.  Trying to intellectualise our faith will not work because human intellect falls far short of God's infinite wisdom.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have used sub atomic physics and quantum theory...

No you haven't.

...to illustrate the limitations of current science...

No-one doubts that it has limitations. That's why people keep doing it.

... and show that there is plenty of scope for God's (and man's) interaction with our world.

It no more does that than it allows scope for any other fantastical conjecture. If you think that the tautology "science doesn't know everything" let's in "God", then it also lets in leprechauns. 

I totally agree that you will not discover Christian faith by studying sub atomic physics.  My intention was to remove the misconception that science explains everything...

A "misconception" no-one much has...

...in order to allow God's holy spirit to enter people's lives.

You'd need to demonstrate this "God" before troubling yourself with whether or not he has a "spirit", holy or otherwise.   

Our faith in God should be like a parent / child relationship where we are able to put all our faith and trust in Him.

No doubt that is your personal opinion on the matter.

Trying to intellectualise our faith will not work because human intellect falls far short of God's infinite wisdom.

Again, no doubt that's your personal opinion on the matter. What's being "intellectualised" though is the arguments you attempt to show this "God" to be real, all of which so far at least have been falsified.

If you want to assert "God" as an article of your personal faith, that's a matter just for you. If you want to assert him to be my god too though, then you'll need to do better than very bad arguments for the claim to be taken seriously. 

[jeremyp]

Our faith in God should be like a parent / child relationship where we are able to put all our faith and trust in Him.  Trying to intellectualise our faith will not work because human intellect falls far short of God's infinite wisdom.

I discovered a long time ago that my parents were not perfect and are frequently wrong about things.

On the other hand, they do actually exist.