Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3888138 times)

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13625 on: October 10, 2016, 02:33:58 PM »
It's as conclusive as your evidence for a soul!

Nice one S T

ippy

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13626 on: October 10, 2016, 03:06:47 PM »
A soul is just a fancy name for consciousness, and dies when the body dies, imo.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13627 on: October 10, 2016, 05:58:31 PM »
Chimps bashing a tree with a rock to make a loud noise.

I do not think this is conclusive evidence of their ability to believe in God's existence.

Agreed, but it might be evidence of precursors of religious behaviours - ritual, superstition etc.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13628 on: October 10, 2016, 06:11:06 PM »
Agreed, but it might be evidence of precursors of religious behaviours - ritual, superstition etc.
Why religion and not say, reductionist materialism? or secular humanism?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13629 on: October 10, 2016, 07:26:29 PM »
Why religion and not say, reductionist materialism? or secular humanism?
Are you still here?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13630 on: October 10, 2016, 08:15:13 PM »
Are you still here?
No....you're imagining it.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13631 on: October 10, 2016, 08:29:49 PM »
No....you're imagining it.
No....I'm intuiting it. Seemingly there is a difference.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13632 on: October 10, 2016, 08:29:59 PM »
Why religion and not say, reductionist materialism? or secular humanism?

What, do they throw stones at trees also ?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13633 on: October 10, 2016, 08:52:02 PM »
What, do they throw stones at trees also ?
eh?

Khatru

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13634 on: October 11, 2016, 03:00:51 PM »
Can you not see the contradiction in this statement?
If free will exists, it can't be overriden, otherwise it would not be free will.

This means that some people in the Bible (Pharaoh and the King of Heshbon) did not have free will.

Then there are the people who God chooses to make them not listen  (Romans 9:18)

Not forgetting that God has consigned all men to disobedience (Romans 11:32)

"LORD, I know that people’s lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps."
(Jeremiah 10:23)

Of course, we were chosen in advance by God and that everything works out in accordance with his plan. (Ephesians 1:11)

No free will there, eh?
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

Khatru

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13635 on: October 11, 2016, 03:02:25 PM »
Ohhhh SNAP!!


Need some popcorn for this debacle!!

Looks like Sass agrees that we're not alive until we breathe.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13636 on: October 11, 2016, 07:51:44 PM »
This means that some people in the Bible (Pharaoh and the King of Heshbon) did not have free will.

Then there are the people who God chooses to make them not listen  (Romans 9:18)

Not forgetting that God has consigned all men to disobedience (Romans 11:32)

"LORD, I know that people’s lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps."
(Jeremiah 10:23)

Of course, we were chosen in advance by God and that everything works out in accordance with his plan. (Ephesians 1:11)

No free will there, eh?
We all have the freedom to choose between right and wrong.  Even though we are aware of what is right, our God given freedom allows us choose to do what we perceive to be wrong, just because we want to.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13637 on: October 11, 2016, 08:04:27 PM »
We all have the freedom to choose between right and wrong.  Even though we are aware of what is right, our God given freedom allows us choose to do what we perceive to be wrong, just because we want to.
leaving aside you just asserting the above, that effectively  that the scripture mentioned by Khatru is wrong - and so you are arguing against your own position on the Bible. Maybe you need to actually read posts.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13638 on: October 11, 2016, 08:49:59 PM »
We all have the freedom to choose between right and wrong.  Even though we are aware of what is right, our God given freedom allows us choose to do what we perceive to be wrong, just because we want to.

Okay, let's run with your idea that we have the freedom to choose between right and wrong, and let's run with the idea that some people choose to do wrong because they want to. Now, how about all those other people who choose to do things that they consider right, not wrong, but which don't fit other people's ideas of what is right? It's no good saying that they are simply mistaken, because you suggest that 'we are aware of what is right'. For instance, I'm in favour of assisted dying in certain exceptional circumstances and under strict controls.  Mistaken in my thinking? Possibly. Aware that it is wrong? Definitely not.   
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Khatru

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13639 on: October 11, 2016, 09:38:28 PM »
We all have the freedom to choose between right and wrong.  Even though we are aware of what is right, our God given freedom allows us choose to do what we perceive to be wrong, just because we want to.

Unless your god interferes and imposes his will over our own.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

Khatru

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13640 on: October 11, 2016, 10:07:51 PM »
Alan says that his god gave man free will.

What about people who are mentally ill who don't have control over their impulses and actions?  Not everybody has free will over their actions and thoughts, which kind of puts the kibosh on his statement that everyone has free will.

What's more, given that we need free will to sin, that makes those without free will sin free.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 10:33:09 PM by Khatru »
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13641 on: October 11, 2016, 11:19:59 PM »
Okay, let's run with your idea that we have the freedom to choose between right and wrong, and let's run with the idea that some people choose to do wrong because they want to. Now, how about all those other people who choose to do things that they consider right, not wrong, but which don't fit other people's ideas of what is right? It's no good saying that they are simply mistaken, because you suggest that 'we are aware of what is right'. For instance, I'm in favour of assisted dying in certain exceptional circumstances and under strict controls.  Mistaken in my thinking? Possibly. Aware that it is wrong? Definitely not.
If you genuinely follow what your conscience tells you is right, then you have chosen right.  But can you not recall choosing to do something which your conscience tells you is wrong?  The latter is an example of human free will, when there is no feasible explanation for your action other than it was what you chose to do.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13642 on: October 11, 2016, 11:27:35 PM »
If you genuinely follow what your conscience tells you is right, then you have chosen right.  But can you not recall choosing to do something which your conscience tells you is wrong?  The latter is an example of human free will, when there is no feasible explanation for your action other than it was what you chose to do.
why did you ignore what enki wrote! Did your god tell you to lie about what he said?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13643 on: October 12, 2016, 06:42:35 AM »
If you genuinely follow what your conscience tells you is right, then you have chosen right.  But can you not recall choosing to do something which your conscience tells you is wrong?  The latter is an example of human free will, when there is no feasible explanation for your action other than it was what you chose to do.

How would you know if your conscience is right ?  Most people is southern India refuse to eat meat because their conscience will not allow it; people in the north have little such qualms.  Who has the correct conscience ?  You sound like a moral relativist.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13644 on: October 12, 2016, 10:15:17 AM »
We all have the freedom to choose between right and wrong.  Even though we are aware of what is right, our God given freedom allows us choose to do what we perceive to be wrong, just because we want to.
What is considered to be right and wrong is usually determined by the conditioning we receive especially during early life and as such can hardly be called 'free'.  Also what is considered right to one generation can be varied by a following generation.  As a Christian are you not obliged to fall in line with 'Thy Will be done', in which case, you are virtually surrendering your 'free' will.  Your only 'free' choice appears to be between either being driven by self will or surrendering to God's Will.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13645 on: October 12, 2016, 03:10:24 PM »
If you genuinely follow what your conscience tells you is right, then you have chosen right.  But can you not recall choosing to do something which your conscience tells you is wrong?  The latter is an example of human free will, when there is no feasible explanation for your action other than it was what you chose to do.

Oh Alan,

Leaving aside the fact that I seem have a totally different concept of how ideas of right and wrong originate in comparison to you, you now seem to have, at the very least, modified your initial statement/assertion (that 'we are aware of what is right') to the idea that your 'conscience' will somehow tell you what is right('your conscience tells you what is right') without actually trying to answer the question I posed.

What you now seem to be suggesting is what is right/wrong is dependent on an individual's conscience, and, hence, morality is no absolute thing at all, for one person's 'conscience' may well differ from another person's.

So, I ask again, how about all those people who choose to do things that they consider right(conscience included), but which don't fit other people's ideas of what is right(conscience included)?

And then, of course, you bring into this the idea that the act of choosing is an example of free will without really bothering to explain the restraints of cause and effect, whereas I see an individual's act of choosing something which he/she thinks is moral/right as a human construct which attempts to deal with all manner of situations which have no intrinsic moral value in themselves. As I see it, The morality we feel is based upon the need for social cohesion, driven by the qualities of empathy, compassion and altruism and and fashioned by culture, nurture and rationality.

With certain reservations, I am much more inclined to follow Ekim's thinking(Post 13646) than yours.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13646 on: October 12, 2016, 03:27:17 PM »
If you genuinely follow what your conscience tells you is right, then you have chosen right.  But can you not recall choosing to do something which your conscience tells you is wrong?  The latter is an example of human free will, when there is no feasible explanation for your action other than it was what you chose to do.

This is heading towards relativism.  I don't object, but I'm surprised that you would head in that direction. 
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13647 on: October 12, 2016, 03:39:15 PM »
Oh Alan,

Leaving aside the fact that I seem have a totally different concept of how ideas of right and wrong originate in comparison to you, you now seem to have, at the very least, modified your initial statement/assertion (that 'we are aware of what is right') to the idea that your 'conscience' will somehow tell you what is right('your conscience tells you what is right') without actually trying to answer the question I posed.

What you now seem to be suggesting is what is right/wrong is dependent on an individual's conscience, and, hence, morality is no absolute thing at all, for one person's 'conscience' may well differ from another person's.

So, I ask again, how about all those people who choose to do things that they consider right(conscience included), but which don't fit other people's ideas of what is right(conscience included)?

And then, of course, you bring into this the idea that the act of choosing is an example of free will without really bothering to explain the restraints of cause and effect, whereas I see an individual's act of choosing something which he/she thinks is moral/right as a human construct which attempts to deal with all manner of situations which have no intrinsic moral value in themselves. As I see it, The morality we feel is based upon the need for social cohesion, driven by the qualities of empathy, compassion and altruism and and fashioned by culture, nurture and rationality.

With certain reservations, I am much more inclined to follow Ekim's thinking(Post 13646) than yours.

enki, If you go onto the BBC iPlayer for last night 11-10-16 BBC channel-4-2200 'The Brain: a Secret History', it covers a sizable part of your post 16347 to Alan and reinforces your post as well.

That Brain prog, it's up to the usual BBC standards and is really enjoyable too.

Regards ippy

 

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13648 on: October 12, 2016, 03:44:10 PM »
enki, If you go onto the BBC iPlayer for last night 11-10-16 BBC channel-4-2200 'The Brain: a Secret History', it covers a sizable part of your post 16347 to Alan and reinforces your post as well.

That Brain prog, it's up to the usual BBC standards and is really enjoyable too.

Regards ippy

Cheers Ippy. I actually did watch it last night, but thanks for the info nevertheless. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

jjohnjil

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #13649 on: October 12, 2016, 04:48:59 PM »
enki, If you go onto the BBC iPlayer for last night 11-10-16 BBC channel-4-2200 'The Brain: a Secret History', it covers a sizable part of your post 16347 to Alan and reinforces your post as well.

That Brain prog, it's up to the usual BBC standards and is really enjoyable too.

Regards ippy

Ah, that old devil working through the BBC again!  He's a crafty old sod!