Searching for GOD...

[BeRational]

So you're 100% certain that there is no God?

For myself I am only saying that I remain unconvinced that yours or anyone elses God exists.

Mine is the default position where yours is not.

What made you leave the default position?

[Gordon]

So you're 100% certain that there is no God?

No, that would involve me making claim of having knowledge.

All I can say is that there are no good reasons for considering there might be a God since all the pro-God arguments to date are fallacious in one way or another. Pending a new argument, as opposed to a restatement of one of the fallacious arguments, I think 'God' isn't a serious proposition.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

So you're 100% certain that there is no God?

That's not what he said.

As you've brought it up though (and leaving aside the definitional problem with the term "God"), you can't be 100% certain about the non-existence of anything. How would you eliminate the possibility of an unknown unknown that showed you to be wrong? 

[floo]

So you're 100% certain that there is no God?

No one can be 100% there is or isn't some sort of external entity, but the ones worshipped by humans aren't it, imo.

[Spud]

So to be an atheist (believer in the non-existence of God) one has to have a degree of faith, sinc you can't be 100% sure of God's non-existence?

[Gordon]

So to be an atheist (believer in the non-existence of God) one has to have a degree of faith, sinc you can't be 100% sure of God's non-existence?

No - I don't have any beliefs about Gods at all, since the notion is incoherent: at best I've rejected some arguments attempted by theists.

[Spud]

So Gordon, you are not an atheist?

[SqueakyVoice]

So to be an atheist (believer in the non-existence of God) one has to have a degree of faith, sinc you can't be 100% sure of God's non-existence?

Spud,
Why don't you re-read Gordon's reply (#14023) and tell us what degree of faith his (& many other atheists) position needs?

[Rhiannon]

So to be an atheist (believer in the non-existence of God) one has to have a degree of faith, sinc you can't be 100% sure of God's non-existence?

Do you have faith in the absence of dragons? Or do you simply accept an absence of dragons, in spite of stories saying that they exist?

[Shaker]

So to be an atheist (believer in the non-existence of God) one has to have a degree of faith, sinc you can't be 100% sure of God's non-existence?

I have 100% faith both that this is a fine example of the excluded middle fallacy and that you're unaware that you're committing it.

[Gordon]

So Gordon, you are not an atheist?

I'd say I fit that description: I have no beliefs about Gods and find all arguments advanced by theists so far to be easily dismissed as being incoherent or fallacious. I can't rule out the possibility of a new argument that would be convincing, though I think this is so unlikely that 'God' isn't a serious proposition.

'Faith', in the sense of its use in relation to theism, is utterly irrelevant since I don't have any God-related beliefs to sign up to.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

So to be an atheist (believer in the non-existence of God) one has to have a degree of faith, sinc you can't be 100% sure of God's non-existence?

That's not what "atheist" means. Try this: your a-leprechaunism is your non-belief in leprechauns, but you cannot categorically say that they don't exist. A-theism works the same way, and for the same reason.

[Spud]

Spud,

That's not what "atheist" means. Try this: your a-leprechaunism is the your non-belief in leprechauns, but you cannot categorically say that they don't exist. A-theism works the same way, and for the same reason.

If I cannot categorically say leprechauns don't exist, then I can't disbelieve in them. I can, however, have a lack of belief in them. There seem to be two definitions of atheism: actual disbelief and lack of belief.

Anyway, I'm still quite interested in your question about how to tell if one faith should be followed over another.

I gave the example of Abram and Hagar because the story seems to illustrate how someone can believe that God has said something to him but act in a way that someone else would think was not right. So the onlooker might think from observing Abram's actions that God had not spoken to him.

Thus, God may have spoken to a someone like Mohamed (eg "do not follow ungodly ways"), but Mohamed may then have acted according to his own ideas about what God said.

Last night there was a debate about ISIS on LBC. It was evident that a lot of Muslims are confused as to what jihad means, because of the way groups like ISIS teach it means literal war. Someone pointed out that these martyrs are being taught that if they die in battle for Islam, Allah will forgive past sins so they won't be punished for them in the afterlife. This is apparently motivating many criminals who want God's forgiveness to join ISIS.

The answer to your question has to be that each individual has to discern the right from the wrong.

[Shaker]

If I cannot categorically say leprechauns don't exist, then I can't disbelieve in them. I can, however, have a lack of belief in them.

By George I think he's got it!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

If I cannot categorically say leprechauns don't exist, then I can't disbelieve in them. I can, however, have a lack of belief in them. There seem to be two definitions of atheism: actual disbelief and lack of belief.

Well that’s progress I guess. The “so Mr Atheist, how do you intend to disprove God then?” argument has always been a straw man. The “a-” prefix just means “without” and not “disproven” or similar, which is why your “faith” line misses its target. So far as I know by the way there isn't even a word for a "there certainly are no gods-ist".

Anyway, I'm still quite interested in your question about how to tell if one faith should be followed over another.

I gave the example of Abram and Hagar because the story seems to illustrate how someone can believe that God has said something to him but act in a way that someone else would think was not right. So the onlooker might think from observing Abram's actions that God had not spoken to him.

Thus, God may have spoken to a someone like Mohamed (eg "do not follow ungodly ways"), but Mohamed may then have acted according to his own ideas about what God said.

Last night there was a debate about ISIS on LBC. It was evident that a lot of Muslims are confused as to what jihad means, because of the way groups like ISIS teach it means literal war. Someone pointed out that these martyrs are being taught that if they die in battle for Islam, Allah will forgive past sins so they won't be punished for them in the afterlife. This is apparently motivating many criminals who want God's forgiveness to join ISIS.

The answer to your question has to be that each individual has to discern the right from the wrong.

But that’s no answer at all. If I line up ten people before breakfast – you, a muslim, a Ra-ist, a believer in Poseidon, a leprechaunist etc all of them will tell me that he’s right about his individual faith belief. Each of them too will expect his belief to be afforded respect and possibly special privileges in the public square greater than would be afforded to someone just guessing.

The question therefore remains: how should a disinterested observer sift the epistemic value of any such claim from any other, or indeed from just guessing?

[Spud]

Spud,

Well that’s progress I guess. The “so Mr Atheist, how do you intend to disprove God then?” argument has always been a straw man. The “a-” prefix just means “without” and not “disproven” or similar, which is why your “faith” line misses its target. So far as I know by the way there isn't even a word for a "there certainly are no gods-ist".

But that’s no answer at all. If I line up ten people before breakfast – you, a muslim, a Ra-ist, a believer in Poseidon, a leprechaunist etc all of them will tell me that he’s right about his individual faith belief. Each of them too will expect his belief to be afforded respect and possibly special privileges in the public square greater than would be afforded to someone just guessing.

The question therefore remains: how should a disinterested observer sift the epistemic value of any such claim from any other, or indeed from just guessing?

Using his loaf, I guess. Muslims believe you have to pray facing a certain direction. You could research whether this is effective or not and thus determine whether he should be afforded respect. Ask them to try praying from the heart in some other direction and see if they receive answers.

[Brownie]

Spud, you must know that Muslims believe that praying from the heart is more important than facing Mecca;  some are not able to do that all the time and God accepts all prayers which come from where we are at any given time.

Rules of religion have value for some of us but adhering to the spirit rather than the letter is what matters.

[Shaker]

Using his loaf, I guess. Muslims believe you have to pray facing a certain direction. You could research whether this is effective or not and thus determine whether he should be afforded respect. Ask them to try praying from the heart in some other direction and see if they receive answers.

And the answer you'll get will be exactly the same sort of confirmation bias - chalking up the random hits and quietly ignoring the equally random misses - that you get from any and every other brand of theist when they talk about prayer.

[Gordon]

Using his loaf, I guess. Muslims believe you have to pray facing a certain direction. You could research whether this is effective or not and thus determine whether he should be afforded respect. Ask them to try praying from the heart in some other direction and see if they receive answers.

And the method you'd use to measure prayer effectiveness is what exactly?

[SusanDoris]

By George I think he's got it!

Yes, I read it twice!! There must be a catch somewhere though....

[BeRational]

So to be an atheist (believer in the non-existence of God) one has to have a degree of faith, sinc you can't be 100% sure of God's non-existence?

That is wrong!!!!!!!!

I do not believe god does not exit.

I do not believe at the moment that he she it does.

There is a subtle difference.

I am NOT making a claim, I am rejecting YOUR claim that he she it exists.

Try this.

I do NOT believe my lawn has an EVEN number of blades of grass.

Do you now think i must believe it has an ODD number of blades of grass, as those are the only two options?

Actually I do not believe if has an EVEN number, and I do not believe it has an ODD number if you ask the questions one at a time.

I know one must be true, but the real answer to "does it have odd or even" is "I don't know"

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

Using his loaf, I guess. Muslims believe you have to pray facing a certain direction. You could research whether this is effective or not and thus determine whether he should be afforded respect. Ask them to try praying from the heart in some other direction and see if they receive answers.

I could do that yes, perhaps with a double blind trial. And I’d find that the praying had no discernible effect at all on the outcomes that were prayed for.

Here’s the thing though: when I tried the same thing with Christian prayers, I’d get exactly the same result – and so would you!

Funny that. So, so far at least, the only method you can suggest to compare one faith belief against another produces precisely the same result in each case – ie, nothing. Which is by the way what you’d expect if all ten of them were just guessing.

Any other suggestions?

[Sebastian Toe]

Using his loaf, I guess. Muslims believe you have to pray facing a certain direction. You could research whether this is effective or not and thus determine whether he should be afforded respect. Ask them to try praying from the heart in some other direction and see if they receive answers.

If you did conduct that experiment  Spud and you found that Muslims praying in accordance with praying towards Mecca actually got positive results.
That would suggest that they are doing something correctly would it not?

Would you then convert to Islam?

[Nearly Sane]

Spud,

I could do that yes, perhaps with a double blind trial. And I’d find that the praying had no discernible effect at all on the outcomes that were prayed for.

Here’s the thing though: when I tried the same thing with Christian prayers, I’d get exactly the same result – and so would you!

Funny that. So, so far at least, the only method you can suggest to compare one faith belief against another produces precisely the same result in each case – ie, nothing. Which is by the way what you’d expect if all ten of them were just guessing.

Any other suggestions?

You are predicting results before the tests? Unless you are aware of a series of science and reality TV 'It might work with this lot!', don't think you can make the claim.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

You are predicting results before the tests? Unless you are aware of a series of science and reality TV 'It might work with this lot!', don't think you can make the claim.

Actually I'm alluding to the trials that have been done. One in particular (in Boston from memory) found that people who were told they were prayed for actually did a bit worse than the other subject groups, presumably because when they thought, "I'm being prayed for? Blimey, it must be serious!".