Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3873019 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1450 on: June 20, 2015, 11:28:59 PM »
For the same reason that oncologists don't jack it in and take up book-binding for a living.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1451 on: June 20, 2015, 11:31:36 PM »
No, it's called having a low tolerance for bullshit.

People may well be happy believing bullshit, of course - it's called a fool's paradise; but the trouble with a fool's paradise is that it's full of fools.

"This expression was first recorded in 1462."  So, it was you who first used it!    :D
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 11:33:45 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1452 on: June 20, 2015, 11:32:59 PM »
No, but it may well have been one of my ancestors.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1453 on: June 20, 2015, 11:34:13 PM »
No, but it may well have been one of my ancestors.

Maybe he/she was in it?    :)
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1454 on: June 20, 2015, 11:38:33 PM »
It's possible - I suppose there was an excuse for being a credulous and gullible clown in 1462.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1455 on: June 20, 2015, 11:40:38 PM »
It's possible - I suppose there was an excuse for being a credulous and gullible clown in 1462.

Of course, these traits carry on through the generations!   :D
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1456 on: June 20, 2015, 11:46:27 PM »
Apart from those who evolve.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1457 on: June 20, 2015, 11:47:58 PM »
Apart from those who evolve.

Assuming they have evolved.  And, of course, the traits may be even more pronounced in later generations.    :)
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1458 on: June 20, 2015, 11:52:21 PM »
Uh oh. It's not only Assertion Burns who needs a stiff dose of Dawkins
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1459 on: June 20, 2015, 11:55:46 PM »
Uh oh. It's not only Assertion Burns who needs a stiff dose of Dawkins

Stiff: noun:
a boring, conventional person.

No, I'll stick to Horlicks at this time of night!

BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1460 on: June 21, 2015, 04:52:52 AM »

But where this ties in with Alan's Christian belief I'm not sure.
It was about forty years ago when I had a eureka moment and realised that the human attributes of conscious awareness, free thought and free will could never be fully explained by materialistic science.  And this provided substantial evidence for the existence of a human soul which perceives and interacts with the physical elements of the human brain to facilitate free will, driven by conscious awareness.  And another offshoot was the conclusion that the physical universe is not fully determinate, and intelligent design can occur though acts of intelligenty guided free will.  Forty years on and I have found nothing to contradict my ideas, and much evidence to reinforce them.

The word evidence is a friend of mine, please stop pissing on it
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1461 on: June 21, 2015, 10:12:23 AM »
OK, but you don't believe that other animals in reality are organic robots with no inner feelings do you, so why bring it up ?
I recall it was you who brought the subject up by asking me about the inner feelings of a goose when you say "boo".

I just responded by saying that we can't really speculate whithout entering the mind of the goose, but in reality the goose shows little evidence of the inner feelings felt by humans.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 10:23:19 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1462 on: June 21, 2015, 10:44:05 AM »
OK, but you don't believe that other animals in reality are organic robots with no inner feelings do you, so why bring it up ?
I recall it was you who brought the subject up by asking me about the inner feelings of a goose when you say "boo".

I just responded by saying that we can't really speculate whithout entering the mind of the goose, but in reality the goose shows little evidence of the inner feelings felt by humans.

Yes it does. All creatures appear to have the same basic experiences that we do; they know fear, they know hunger, they know pain, they know thirst, they know excitement and anger and lethargy; they have periods of sleep and periods of wakefulness, some appear to dream whilst asleep, they experience sight, hearing, touch.  Granted humans might have a richer range of inner experiences; perhaps no goose has ever felt embarassement, maybe no aardvark has ever felt cognitive dissonance.  But our collective reasonable presumption is that all animals share some degree of similar inner experience and base cognitive function, not least because we share similar brain structures. So if you keep on insisting that perception requires a separate inner perceiver to be in receipt of this stream of experience, and in humans, this is what you call a soul, then by your thinking all higher creatures must have a soul.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 10:47:22 AM by torridon »

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1463 on: June 21, 2015, 11:33:16 AM »
Haven't ideas like Alan's about the soul had a catastrophic impact on human thinking?  I think Shaker has already referred to Descartes' appalling ideas about animals (being like machines), but in a sense, this split or alienation has dominated human thinking about nature for centuries.   This is not just because of Christianity, of course, but it played its part in the disastrous way in which nature has been wrecked by us humans, since nature is said to have no soul.

Just looking at the thread on the mass extinction now threatened, these are the fruits of it.   I'm not surprised that paganism is having a renaissance.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1464 on: June 21, 2015, 11:40:42 AM »
The weird connectivity in those who deny climate change and the evangelical right wing Christianity in the U S paints a very odd view of anything in the Bible

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1465 on: June 21, 2015, 11:57:24 AM »

Just looking at the thread on the mass extinction now threatened, these are the fruits of it.   I'm not surprised that paganism is having a renaissance.

I would like to think that it would help, but can't see that the numbers are there for it to have any measurable impact.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1466 on: June 21, 2015, 08:09:21 PM »

But where this ties in with Alan's Christian belief I'm not sure.
It was about forty years ago when I had a eureka moment and realised that the human attributes of conscious awareness, free thought and free will could never be fully explained by materialistic science.  And this provided substantial evidence for the existence of a human soul which perceives and interacts with the physical elements of the human brain to facilitate free will, driven by conscious awareness.  And another offshoot was the conclusion that the physical universe is not fully determinate, and intelligent design can occur though acts of intelligenty guided free will.  Forty years on and I have found nothing to contradict my ideas, and much evidence to reinforce them.

Clearly you haven't been reading posts on this thread for a start, then.  But then you always give that impression anyhow  :(
I have read through most posts on the Christian topic since I joined the forum over a year ago, but do not have time to contribute as much as I would like to.

I have found nothing to dent my faith, but many of the exchanges have deepened my faith by illustrating the shallowness in most of the atheist arguments.

One of the common arguments against Christianity is that it is wishful thinking which gives believers a comfortable feeling.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  It is not easy being a practising Christian, particularly in our increasingly secular society.  The journey in faith involves sacrificing our own will and being led by God to do things which we would not normally choose to do, such as speaking up in public on issues which go against popular opinion.  Looking at the life stories of past saints reveals that they are often called into lives of extreme hardship, suffering and poverty to help spread the faith, and sometimes lose their lives in the cause.  This is most definitely not wishful thinking.

It might be thought a preferable option to ignore my belief and pretend that God does not exist.  This would free me to do the things I like doing and give me more time to do them rather than waste time going to services and saying prayers.  But there is no possible way for me to do this because I know beyond any doubt that God does exist and calls me to follow Him.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 10:48:50 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1467 on: June 21, 2015, 10:51:06 PM »
Knowing beyond doubt = scary, and the hallmark of every kind of religious or political (or religious and political) fanatic there has ever been.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1468 on: June 21, 2015, 10:53:50 PM »
Uh oh. It's not only Assertion Burns who needs a stiff dose of Dawkins
I would love to be able to confront Richard Dawkins face to face and convince him that there is much more to our humanity than bigger brains.  There is so much more to reality than his narrow minded scientific approach can ever discover.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1469 on: June 21, 2015, 11:02:08 PM »
I would love to be able to confront Richard Dawkins face to face and convince him that there is much more to our humanity than bigger brains.  There is so much more to reality than his narrow minded scientific approach can ever discover.
Airborne pastry products, Alan (or in other words, sheer pie in the sky).  I would love you to be able to do precisely this to any of us here. If you're anything like me, you write better than you talk since when writing you have more time to marshal your arguments, to collect all your facts and to express these in as clear and concise a manner as possible, since you have the leisure to find le mot juste, the best words with which to express whatever it is you want to convey. I for one don't always - in fact seldom - have all the time here to give posts the scrupulous care and attention at least some of them deserve (I do my best, all too frequently in haste) but in my other life I know just how satisfying the choice and the placement of words, the construction of sentences can be. There's no reason why you can't partake of this or need not have done so already.

So, with apologies to Walter Savage Landor, never mind your imaginary conversation with Prof. Dawkins (who would of course in person wipe the floor with you, wring you out in the kitchen sink, rinse you through and peg you out on the line to dry); you could, in principle, convince any and all of us here simply by making a cogent and coherent case for your beliefs.

You've not done so thus far, and we both know why.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 11:09:58 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1470 on: June 22, 2015, 06:51:54 AM »
I would love to be able to confront Richard Dawkins face to face and convince him that there is much more to our humanity than bigger brains.  There is so much more to reality than his narrow minded scientific approach can ever discover.
Airborne pastry products, Alan (or in other words, sheer pie in the sky).  I would love you to be able to do precisely this to any of us here. If you're anything like me, you write better than you talk since when writing you have more time to marshal your arguments, to collect all your facts and to express these in as clear and concise a manner as possible, since you have the leisure to find le mot juste, the best words with which to express whatever it is you want to convey. I for one don't always - in fact seldom - have all the time here to give posts the scrupulous care and attention at least some of them deserve (I do my best, all too frequently in haste) but in my other life I know just how satisfying the choice and the placement of words, the construction of sentences can be. There's no reason why you can't partake of this or need not have done so already.

So, with apologies to Walter Savage Landor, never mind your imaginary conversation with Prof. Dawkins (who would of course in person wipe the floor with you, wring you out in the kitchen sink, rinse you through and peg you out on the line to dry); you could, in principle, convince any and all of us here simply by making a cogent and coherent case for your beliefs.

You've not done so thus far, and we both know why.

I am beginning to think that, like Sass, Alan is so completely taken over by his belief that he DOESN'T know why.  :(

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1471 on: June 22, 2015, 07:32:36 AM »
Shaker #1500

Well said. Yes, my first thought too, on reading AB's post, was to think, 'he'd wipe the floor with you!!!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1472 on: June 22, 2015, 08:02:53 AM »
Most of the times I have seen Dawkins, he is respectful. That said we are back at the general worthlessness of debates, particularly formal ones at getting at truth. They are a dark art which can be practised so that truth becomes as necessary to the case as  bagpipes to a string quartet.

I do find Alan's position odd since it seems to major on Dick' s narrow mindedness than saving his soul.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1473 on: June 22, 2015, 08:13:48 AM »

So, with apologies to Walter Savage Landor, never mind your imaginary conversation with Prof. Dawkins (who would of course in person wipe the floor with you, wring you out in the kitchen sink, rinse you through and peg you out on the line to dry); you could, in principle, convince any and all of us here simply by making a cogent and coherent case for your beliefs.

You've not done so thus far, and we both know why.
One of the problems with forum postings is that it is not practical to expand on some ideas and topics as much as I would like to.

One of my atheist freinds bought me a copy of "The God Delusion" in an attempt to convert me.  After reading it I had many long discussions with my friend in which I brought up many points on which he failed to offer any real answer.  I have touched on some of these points in my postings here which have not been satisfactorily answered.  The link below is an interesting critique of Dawkin's book by Terry Eagleton which highlights some further shortcomings:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/terry-eagleton/lunging-flailing-mispunching
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 10:11:02 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1474 on: June 22, 2015, 08:24:27 AM »
I would love to be able to confront Richard Dawkins face to face and convince him that there is much more to our humanity than bigger brains.  There is so much more to reality than his narrow minded scientific approach can ever discover.
Airborne pastry products, Alan (or in other words, sheer pie in the sky).  I would love you to be able to do precisely this to any of us here. If you're anything like me, you write better than you talk since when writing you have more time to marshal your arguments, to collect all your facts and to express these in as clear and concise a manner as possible, since you have the leisure to find le mot juste, the best words with which to express whatever it is you want to convey. I for one don't always - in fact seldom - have all the time here to give posts the scrupulous care and attention at least some of them deserve (I do my best, all too frequently in haste) but in my other life I know just how satisfying the choice and the placement of words, the construction of sentences can be. There's no reason why you can't partake of this or need not have done so already.

So, with apologies to Walter Savage Landor, never mind your imaginary conversation with Prof. Dawkins (who would of course in person wipe the floor with you, wring you out in the kitchen sink, rinse you through and peg you out on the line to dry); you could, in principle, convince any and all of us here simply by making a cogent and coherent case for your beliefs.

You've not done so thus far, and we both know why.

I go along with this post of yours all of it and add just a thought of mine.

I miss Chris Hitchens and I always thought R D as a mincer of the meat, Chris by comparison was the liquidizer it's a pity he's no longer around.

ippy