Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3859813 times)

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15600 on: February 21, 2017, 04:02:20 PM »
Still waiting for one that isn't obviously flawed. I take it that you are unable to provide one - hence the drivel about "world views" and number base?
There is no way to prove in base 10 that 1+1=10...and since you are not prepared to change your worldview, I'm not going to waste my time. After all, the hundreds (if not thousands) of posts by other theists here (Alan Burns, Vlad, Sassy, Hope, ... ) haven't made any difference, have they?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15601 on: February 21, 2017, 04:05:08 PM »
Are you Karren Brady?
I get that imitation is a form of flattery but you seem to lack a certain je ne sais quoi. And again the jury, and the man from DelMonte have given you a nul point and said no for the above post. I fear your tactic of imitation is getting in the way of the record attempt.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15602 on: February 21, 2017, 04:06:46 PM »
SotS simplistic question was 'Can you prove that cars are a human creation?'

What available answers do you think there are?
I was just pointing out the irony in you being able to recognise that cars are created, yet you believe human beings are just a natural consequence of physical chains of events.

It is obvious to us that cars are created because we create them.  However to any of the less intelligent beings on this earth, cars may appear to be just another consequence of nature.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15603 on: February 21, 2017, 04:07:50 PM »
How many people are expected to believe that nothing can cause something?

The double standard here is that theists complain of no explanation for the universe's existence but are quite content with no explanation for a god.

In fact, a reality with a god is exactly as mysteriously unexplained as a reality without one. Hence, the request to theists to provide some sort of reason to take their chosen god story seriously...
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15604 on: February 21, 2017, 04:15:39 PM »
There is no way to prove in base 10 that 1+1=10...and since you are not prepared to change your worldview, I'm not going to waste my time.

As I explained - number base is a notational convention which has nothing to do with logic or any "world view". You are free to use any notational convention you wish, provided it is explained. The various notations for the number two can easily be explained, so if your problem is of the same sort as your example, you should have no trouble at all...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15605 on: February 21, 2017, 04:18:55 PM »
I was just pointing out the irony in you being able to recognise that cars are created, yet you believe human beings are just a natural consequence of physical chains of events.

It is obvious to us that cars are created because we create them.  However to any of the less intelligent beings on this earth, cars may appear to be just another consequence of nature.
Careful with the use of that irony stuff, it isn't always your friend. And here by misusing it you have shown that any concept of design that you use makes no sense, as you think cars, trees and bumfluff are all designed, so using cars as an example is self defeating. It's the same error of Paley and the watch. If you posit a universal designer you wouldn't pick out a watch on a beach because it would be just the same as everything else.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 04:42:27 PM by Nearly Sane »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15606 on: February 21, 2017, 04:20:26 PM »
Sword,

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Except that is demonstrably false. At no stage have you been able to demonstrate why anything Alan Burns has said is false.

That’s clearly untrue. Either you think logical fallacies are wrong arguments or you don’t. If you do, AB has been caught trying them countless times – ergo it’s been trivially easy to demonstrate why his arguments are wrong.

As for the outcomes of those bad arguments – “God”, “soul” etc – then you’re back to Russell’s teapot again, which you can’t demonstrate to be false either. What you can do though is to demonstrate that the arguments attempted for any of these conjectures are wrong and so, in epistemic terms, they’re all guesses (albeit often incoherent ones).
   
If you don’t think that logical fallacies are wrong though, then all bets are off – stork conjecture is as valid as god conjecture is as valid as any other conjecture that takes your fancy.

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Again, 2+2=5 is demonstrably false and I've yet to see where you have demonstrated that anything Alan Burns has said is the equivalent of "2+2=God"

That’s exactly what he does. When his arguments are shown to be false, rather then rescind or change them he just complains that we can’t expect them to be sound when we don’t include a “spiritual element” or some such. That he can’t demonstrate this spiritual element in the first place is entirely lost on him.

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And some do the same thing that Alan Burns is criticised for!!

Not at all. If Alan wants to disagree with my “world view” about gravity, he’s entirely welcome to jump out of a window if he wants to

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How many people are expected to believe that nothing can cause something? Yes, it is dressed up elaborately with molecules - man evolution and your emergence theories, but they are all variations on a theme.

You’re not “expected to believe” anything. Either you follow the evidence where it leads or you don’t. When you don’t though so as to allow in “God” then I’m afraid you must let in any other un-evidenced conjecture too.

As for “something from nothing”, first if you posit “God” as the answer you’re just moving the problem back one step. Second though, you need to understand something of information theory to see where the currently most robust explanation lies.

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Why else does the likes of Richard Dawkins talk about illusion of design if it is not to deny the obvious.

Presumably because the false impression of top down design (for which there’s no evidence at all) rather than the reality of bottom up evolution (for which there’s overwhelming evidence) is easy to make.

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Why else do we have situations where it is ok for human beings to design and make things, but not any other entity?

Because you can’t demonstrate that there is “an entity”, and because there’s a perfectly sound explanation that doesn’t require one.

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Are not these the products of a worldview that everyone are expected to accept without question?

No – they’re the products of a “world view” that says that facts and evidence have primacy over guessing and wishful thinking.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 06:07:21 PM by bluehillside »
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God

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15607 on: February 21, 2017, 04:22:38 PM »
I was just pointing out the irony in you being able to recognise that cars are created, yet you believe human beings are just a natural consequence of physical chains of events.

It might have escaped your attention, ironically speaking, that cars and humans aren't the same sort of thing - we've been around a bit longer.

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It is obvious to us that cars are created because we create them.  However to any of the less intelligent beings on this earth, cars may appear to be just another consequence of nature.

Which is an utterly pointless observation.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15608 on: February 21, 2017, 04:51:19 PM »
Disclaimer for Nearly Sane. I am responding to certain parts of bluehillside's post. Is that ok with you? Pretty please...:) :)

The jury really likes this lie as it is a lie about lying, so they are awarding you a bonus point here. At no stage have I suggested you have to respond to everything in a  post. Just that in quote mining you have deliberately and dishonestly presented what was being said in a post. And next time you want to try sarcasm, you should know it's undermined if you lie as openly as you did above.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 04:54:31 PM by Nearly Sane »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15609 on: February 21, 2017, 07:26:35 PM »
It might have escaped your attention, ironically speaking, that cars and humans aren't the same sort of thing - we've been around a bit longer.

Which is an utterly pointless observation.
I think you missed the point.
Our limited human intelligence on its own is highly unlikely to discern the true nature of our existence, and it is certainly not capable of being used to refute the divine revelations of the Christian bible.  However we still need to discern between the man made attempts to find God, and God's ways of making Himself known to us.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15610 on: February 21, 2017, 07:36:33 PM »
I think you missed the point.
Our limited human intelligence on its own is highly unlikely to discern the true nature of our existence, and it is certainly not capable of being used to refute the divine revelations of the Christian bible.  However we still need to discern between the man made attempts to find God, and God's ways of making Himself known to us.

Now then: we have two examples of reification here, along with an argument from authority and all underpinned by your trademark personal incredulity - after which there is nothing left to consider.

Desperate stuff, Alan.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15611 on: February 21, 2017, 07:45:08 PM »
I think you missed the point.
Our limited human intelligence on its own is highly unlikely to discern the true nature of our existence, and it is certainly not capable of being used to refute the divine revelations of the Christian bible.  However we still need to discern between the man made attempts to find God, and God's ways of making Himself known to us.

So given that,  you have just said your decision is highly unlikely to be right, but then denied that.  Why do you post things that appear to show you as lying?

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15612 on: February 21, 2017, 08:27:24 PM »
Our limited human intelligence on its own is highly unlikely to discern the true nature of our existence, and it is certainly not capable of being used to refute the divine revelations of the Christian bible.

Okay, this just has to be a joke!

The bible is an incoherent mess - as anybody who's read it will know, provided they read it to see what it said, rather than to confirm what they already 'knew'...
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15613 on: February 21, 2017, 09:41:38 PM »
So given that,  you have just said your decision is highly unlikely to be right, but then denied that.  Why do you post things that appear to show you as lying?
I have simply said that we can't find God on our own, neither can we deduce that He does not exist.  So the first step in searching for the truth is to humbly seek God's help and guidance.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15614 on: February 21, 2017, 09:54:23 PM »
I have simply said that we can't find God on our own, neither can we deduce that He does not exist.  So the first step in searching for the truth is to humbly seek God's help and guidance.

Which is begging the question - you seem unable to avoid fallacies.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15615 on: February 21, 2017, 10:25:17 PM »

Our limited human intelligence on its own is highly unlikely to discern the true nature of our existence, and it is certainly not capable of being used to refute the divine revelations of the Christian bible.

Why not ? Human intelligence is the only sort we have; we can either use it or fail to use it. The bible has many revelations already refuted by human intelligence - a global worldwide flood in the Bronze Age for instance, clearly refuted by geology. Whatever claims are made, wherever they are made, they can be subject to scrutiny, investigation and debate.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 07:50:20 AM by torridon »

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15616 on: February 22, 2017, 07:59:30 AM »
I have simply said that we can't find God on our own, neither can we deduce that He does not exist. 

That is debatable, it depends on your definitions of 'god' and 'exist'.  Things that exist normally have mass, speed, temperature and coordinates. Using a woollier definition we might allow that abstract concepts 'exist', in these cases the ontology is somewhat harder to pinpoint. If god is an abstract concept then the question resolves down to not whether he exists or not, but rather, whether the concept is valid and coherent or not.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15617 on: February 22, 2017, 08:16:08 AM »
I have simply said that we can't find God on our own, neither can we deduce that He does not exist.  So the first step in searching for the truth is to humbly seek God's help and guidance.

Firstly, not being able to deduce that something does not exist, is not a reason to take its existence seriously.

Secondly, it makes no sense to seek help from something that we have no reason to think exists. Even if we put aside reason and decided to attempt this bizarre approach, we cannot deduce that many, many different and mutually exclusive gods, don't exist (and there are an awful lot of them), so how would we know which one to seek help from?

Thirdly, why would a god not give us the ability to find it (assuming, as you suggest, it's important that we do)? In fact, why wouldn't it make itself blindingly obvious?
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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15618 on: February 22, 2017, 09:10:56 AM »
I have simply said that we can't find God on our own, neither can we deduce that He does not exist.  So the first step in searching for the truth is to humbly seek God's help and guidance.

How do you actually go about seeking the help and guidance of something which you don't have a belief in the existence of?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15619 on: February 22, 2017, 09:18:25 AM »
How do you actually go about seeking the help and guidance of something which you don't have a belief in the existence of?
You take a step in faith.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15620 on: February 22, 2017, 09:19:13 AM »
You take a step in faith.

I asked how you actually do it - that tells me nothing.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15621 on: February 22, 2017, 09:22:31 AM »
AB,

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You take a step in faith.

Thank you for the advice - I think I'll give it a go. Now then, which god should I have faith in...?

Oooh, I know - Poseidon. Yup, definitely Poseidon I think. I've always fancied all that underwater stuff. OK, so I've picked my favourite. How do I do this faith thing again please? What did you do once you'd picked yours? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15622 on: February 22, 2017, 09:34:50 AM »
Okay, this just has to be a joke!

The bible is an incoherent mess - as anybody who's read it will know, provided they read it to see what it said, rather than to confirm what they already 'knew'...
I would suggest that you try reading it with an open mind and a little humility by putting your preconceived ideas to one side, and discover the amazing truth which millions of others have discovered.  And you will truly be free.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15623 on: February 22, 2017, 09:35:12 AM »
I asked how you actually do it - that tells me nothing.



'It's just a jump to the left
And then a step to the right
With your hands on your hips
You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane
Let's do the Time Warp again
Let's do the Time Warp again'



Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #15624 on: February 22, 2017, 09:41:44 AM »
I would suggest that you try reading it with an open mind and a little humility by putting your preconceived ideas to one side, and discover the amazing truth which millions of others have discovered.  And you will truly be free.

Here we have reification, again, plus an ad populum - seems to me what you're advocating is that the route to faith should involve the suspension of any critical thinking about what you decide to have faith in: that clearly suits you, hence the fallacy-fest you are seemingly lost in, but I say no thanks!