Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Here we have reification, again, plus an ad populum - seems to me what you're advocating is that the route to faith should involve the suspension of any critical thinking about what you decide to have faith in: that clearly suits you ....

We can't choose the truth which suits us.  There is only one truth.

[Gordon]

We can't choose the truth which suits us.  There is only one truth.

Is that it? Do we exclaim 'hallelujah' now or later?

This is meaningless, Alan - no more than a simplistic deepity.

[torridon]

You take a step in faith.

That would be immoral though.  A step towards faith is a step away from the integrity earned through impartial critical reasoning.

[Alan Burns]

That would be immoral though.  A step towards faith is a step away from the integrity earned through impartial critical reasoning.

And to what do you owe this integrity earned through impartial critical reasoning?  The aimless unguided forces of nature, or a supreme creative intelligence beyond our understanding?

[Gordon]

And to what do you owe this integrity earned through impartial critical reasoning?  The aimless unguided forces of nature, or a supreme creative intelligence beyond our understanding?

There is compelling evidence for the former and the latter, as we've often seen in comments here, is baseless assertion - so the former is the more likely.

In addition - if this 'supreme creative intelligence' is indeed, 'beyond our understanding' how can you be so certain of it?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

And to what do you owe this integrity earned through impartial critical reasoning?  The aimless unguided forces of nature, or a supreme creative intelligence beyond our understanding?

The evidence suggests strongly the former.

Your problem here is that you insist that others too assume your premise of "God". The point of critical thinking though is to determine whether or not that premise is reasonable. In the absence of any arguments for it that aren't hopeless (many of which you've tried here), so far at least you've given us no reason to think that it is.     

[Maeght]

I would suggest that you try reading it with an open mind and a little humility by putting your preconceived ideas to one side, and discover the amazing truth which millions of others have discovered.  And you will truly be free.

Preconceived ideas? Such as?

[torridon]

And to what do you owe this integrity earned through impartial critical reasoning?  The aimless unguided forces of nature, or a supreme creative intelligence beyond our understanding?

Doesn't matter, really.  Whether it be a 'gift' from a magic god or an evolved trait, it is there, so we use it. We cannot stop thinking any more than we can stop breathing.

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

Doesn't matter, really.  Whether it be a 'gift' from a magic god or an evolved trait, it is there, so we use it. We cannot stop thinking any more than we can stop breathing.

True, but we can it seems stop critical thinking - which is essentially what happens we we think "faith" provides meaningful answers. That it seems to me is the problem with claiming "God" to be the answer to anything - it's the end of critical thinking. How did the universe come to be? God. How does that work? It's a mystery.

[Stranger]

Okay, this just has to be a joke!

The bible is an incoherent mess - as anybody who's read it will know, provided they read it to see what it said, rather than to confirm what they already 'knew'...

I would suggest that you try reading it with an open mind and a little humility by putting your preconceived ideas to one side...

By a staggering coincidence, that is exactly my recommendation to yourself. When I first read it, I fully expected to find the "Christian message" that I had heard (well, I was young and naive) - but no - just a disjointed often contradictory and in places morally obnoxious, mess.

We can't choose the truth which suits us.  There is only one truth.

Exactly.

[wigginhall]

We can't choose the truth which suits us.  There is only one truth.

I think this is correct in a way which you probably don't mean.  I can't choose how I see the world.   No doubt I am privy to countless odd ideas and feelings, garnered over a lifetime; I don't see these as particularly consistent or coherent.   But I can't dismantle them through an act of will, or make them different.   The idea of 'one truth' strikes me as strange, since I am a buzzing mass of different stuff without unity.   

[Sebastian Toe]

I would suggest that you try reading it with an open mind and a little humility by putting your preconceived ideas to one side, and discover the amazing truth which millions of others have discovered.  And you will truly be free.

I would suggest that you try reading the Quran with an open mind and a little humility by putting your preconceived ideas to one side, and discover the amazing truth which millions of others have discovered. 
And you might truly be free.

 

[Dicky Underpants]

I would suggest that you try reading it with an open mind and a little humility by putting your preconceived ideas to one side, and discover the amazing truth which millions of others have discovered.  And you will truly be free.

When critical thinkers first started to do this with any rigour, they daren't even publish what they found (for example, Samuel Reimarus). When David Friedrich Strauss published his "Life of Jesus Critically Examined", that was the end of his academic career. To have spoken or written about such things in a former age might have meant the end of a person's life. That's Christian love for you....

[Maeght]

We can't choose the truth which suits us.  There is only one truth.

So you don't have free will to choose?

[wigginhall]

When critical thinkers first started to do this with any rigour, they daren't even publish what they found (for example, Samuel Reimarus). When David Friedrich Strauss published his "Life of Jesus Critically Examined", that was the end of his academic career. To have spoken or written about such things in a former age might have meant the end of a person's life. That's Christian love for you....

Wasn't that the irritation felt by John Robinson, who said that he had to publish 'Honest to God', as the result of critical scholarship had been shielded from rank and file Christians for a century?   And it did annoy traditionalists, I think.   AB's version of an open mind is like a parachute, everything falls  out.

[ippy]

I would suggest that you try reading it with an open mind and a little humility by putting your preconceived ideas to one side, and discover the amazing truth which millions of others have discovered.  And you will truly be free.

Potty!

ippy

[savillerow]

Msg 15627 AB "There is only one truth" And let me tell you. . . . . .faith answers nothing, zippo, zilch. Not a bloody thing. Religious faith is a curse on the brain, I did like that statement though when a religious person annoyingly says "i have a personal relationship with god" I do like the reply "I have a personal relationship with reality"

[Alan Burns]

So you don't have free will to choose?

You have the free will to investigate and to try to be objective.

[Alan Burns]

I did like that statement though when a religious person annoyingly says "i have a personal relationship with god" I do like the reply "I have a personal relationship with reality"

Reality could not exist without God.

[ippy]

This thread is and has become the Alan Burns 'Unreality Show' for some time now

I would coment but for the fact my coments wouldn't conform with the rules of the forum, I would still  like to make them.

I have seen Sam Harris on YouTube describe people with very similar points of view to the ones Alan puts forward and Sam describes people with views that exactly compare with Alan's expressed views, beautifully.

ippy

[BeRational]

Reality could not exist without God.

Reality cannot exist with god.

[Sebastian Toe]

You have the free will to investigate and to try to be objective.

Once you have done that and the result is negative?

[torridon]

You have the free will to investigate and to try to be objective.

 .. and being objective is what science aspires to; ie don't just run on personal feelings but try to see the bigger picture by eliminating the merely subjective.

[torridon]

Reality could not exist without God.

Assertion alert !

Show your working ....

[floo]

In my opinion, god is a very human construction, which does not exist in reality.