Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

It's quite clever, isn't it?  When it's something nice, then God is behind it, being intelligent; when it's something nasty, like ebola, then this is nature operating independently, and as a bonus, we get the suffering, which is oh so good for us.    Isn't God clever?

Yes, because without God we would not exist.
We are not in Heaven yet.

[Rhiannon]

Leaving aside the small God you've created there, have I got this right that you think God uses his free will to create with nature (nature having what kind of co-creative properties?) the less pleasant complex life around us - viruses like Ebola, mosquitoes and tsetse flies, cancers, motor neurone disease? Tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes? God deliberately created these by his own free will?

God generally allows nature to take its course according to its rules.
But I am certain that He did not just light the blue touchpaper of the Big Bang and stand back.  The evidence for His intelligent intervention is all around us, and within us.  For a much more detailed appraisal of this I would highly reccommend reading "Miracles" by CS Lewis.  I had already formulated these ideas before I read his book, but he seems to confirm much of what I had already thought out.

So nature's rules developed independently from God? Or did he intervene and design the 'rules' that allow for suffering through natural disaster and disease?

If suffering is but a stage then you are making too much of it.

Then why was Jesus quite explicit about helping those who suffer? The danger in your statement there is that alleviating suffering becomes less necessary than converting people, and if suffering is just a 'stage' then perhaps putting effort into stopping it becomes less important.

And what about the unsaved? Does their suffering not count? After all there's no heavenly respite awaiting them.

[Rhiannon]

It's quite clever, isn't it?  When it's something nice, then God is behind it, being intelligent; when it's something nasty, like ebola, then this is nature operating independently, and as a bonus, we get the suffering, which is oh so good for us.    Isn't God clever?

Yes, because without God we would not exist.
We are not in Heaven yet.

So without God Ebola and earthquakes wouldn't exist too?

[ippy]

It's quite clever, isn't it?  When it's something nice, then God is behind it, being intelligent; when it's something nasty, like ebola, then this is nature operating independently, and as a bonus, we get the suffering, which is oh so good for us.    Isn't God clever?

Yes, because without God we would not exist.
We are not in Heaven yet.

Alan, there's no sensible way you can explain how you or anyone else could possibly have the knowledge you say you have, quite frankly you're deluded/potty, one or the other.

ippy

[floo]

Whilst Alan probably sincerely believes his thoughts to be true, he should acknowledge there is no verifiable evidence to back up his statements.

[ippy]

Come on Alan let's have some credible back up of all you seem to know, assertions.

Assertions don't add up to a sensible answer, I don't know but I would imagine you probably think that people that question your belief are putting you on some sort of trial, so if you see off this trial in some way this earns you some kind of heavenly brownie points.

Sounds potty, yes as potty as thinking you've got an invisable friend, without any credible evidence that might support your idea.

ippy

[floo]

Some children have invisible friends, which seem very real to them. Those who think the deity is speaking to them personally come into the same category, imo.

[Leonard James]

Some children have invisible friends, which seem very real to them. Those who think the deity is speaking to them personally come into the same category, imo.

Jesus knew what he was saying in more ways than one, when he said :-

"Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Matt 19:14

[ippy]

Some children have invisible friends, which seem very real to them. Those who think the deity is speaking to them personally come into the same category, imo.

Jesus knew what he was saying in more ways than one, when he said :-

"Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Matt 19:14

The thing is it works Len and the ones that have been successfully taken in really don't think they've been indoctrinated.

It's like anything else with psychology it's all based on a percentage basis, there will always be some that are lucky enough to not be taken in.   

ippy

[Leonard James]

Some children have invisible friends, which seem very real to them. Those who think the deity is speaking to them personally come into the same category, imo.

Jesus knew what he was saying in more ways than one, when he said :-

"Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Matt 19:14

The thing is it works Len and the ones that have been successfully taken in really don't think they've been indoctrinated.

It's like anything else with psychology it's all based on a percentage basis, there will always be some that are lucky enough to not be taken in.   

ippy

Indeed, it worked well on most people back in those days, Ippy. Nowadays we are all more informed, and the less credulous of us can see through it.

Sadly, the carrot and stick of the belief still grip a lot of people.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

I much prefer Mathew 18_ 3.

Gonnagle.

[Alan Burns]

So nature's rules developed independently from God? Or did he intervene and design the 'rules' that allow for suffering through natural disaster and disease?

I do not believe that God want us to suffer, but I am sure that He wants to help us get through it.  Suffering seems to be part of life - no-one goes through their life of this earth without having to endure some form of suffering, but God has promised to help us endure it if we keep faith with Him.

[ippy]

Some children have invisible friends, which seem very real to them. Those who think the deity is speaking to them personally come into the same category, imo.

Jesus knew what he was saying in more ways than one, when he said :-

"Suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Matt 19:14

The thing is it works Len and the ones that have been successfully taken in really don't think they've been indoctrinated.

It's like anything else with psychology it's all based on a percentage basis, there will always be some that are lucky enough to not be taken in.   

ippy

Indeed, it worked well on most people back in those days, Ippy. Nowadays we are all more informed, and the less credulous of us can see through it.

Sadly, the carrot and stick of the belief still grip a lot of people.

Still no response from Alan?

I suppose it's difficult for anyone to back up seriously unfounded superstitious, mythical and magical ideas without running, in this case, the very likely risk of leaving yourself open to more ridicule.

ippy

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

I much prefer Mathew 18_ 3.

Gonnagle.

Especially if you rephrase it :-

Except ye become as little children and be converted, ye shall not enter into the kingom of heaven.

[ippy]

So nature's rules developed independently from God? Or did he intervene and design the 'rules' that allow for suffering through natural disaster and disease?

I do not believe that God want us to suffer, but I am sure that He wants to help us get through it.  Suffering seems to be part of life - no-one goes through their life of this earth without having to endure some form of suffering, but God has promised to help us endure it if we keep faith with Him.

When and how Alan?

ippy

[wigginhall]

It's quite clever, isn't it?  When it's something nice, then God is behind it, being intelligent; when it's something nasty, like ebola, then this is nature operating independently, and as a bonus, we get the suffering, which is oh so good for us.    Isn't God clever?

Yes, because without God we would not exist.
We are not in Heaven yet.

Well, Barcelona should sign you, as you do more side-steps and swerves than Lionel Messi.   Very nice swerve round the questions there - God is being intelligent, when he intervenes, but also very cleverly leaves nature alone, when we get something nasty.  It makes perfect sense, if your use of logic is as baggy and elastic as my granny's drawers.

[ippy]

It's quite clever, isn't it?  When it's something nice, then God is behind it, being intelligent; when it's something nasty, like ebola, then this is nature operating independently, and as a bonus, we get the suffering, which is oh so good for us.    Isn't God clever?

Yes, because without God we would not exist.
We are not in Heaven yet.

Well, Barcelona should sign you, as you do more side-steps and swerves than Lionel Messi.   Very nice swerve round the questions there - God is being intelligent, when he intervenes, but also very cleverly leaves nature alone, when we get something nasty.  It makes perfect sense, if your use of logic is as baggy and elastic as my granny's drawers.

Excellent Wiggi 24 out of ten.

ippy

[ippy]

So nature's rules developed independently from God? Or did he intervene and design the 'rules' that allow for suffering through natural disaster and disease?

I do not believe that God want us to suffer, but I am sure that He wants to help us get through it.  Suffering seems to be part of life - no-one goes through their life of this earth without having to endure some form of suffering, but God has promised to help us endure it if we keep faith with Him.

If the deity doesn't want us to suffer why the heck did it create the conditions which would bring suffering to humans?

It's not real Floo.

ippy

[floo]

So nature's rules developed independently from God? Or did he intervene and design the 'rules' that allow for suffering through natural disaster and disease?

I do not believe that God want us to suffer, but I am sure that He wants to help us get through it.  Suffering seems to be part of life - no-one goes through their life of this earth without having to endure some form of suffering, but God has promised to help us endure it if we keep faith with Him.

If the deity doesn't want us to suffer why the heck did it create the conditions which would bring suffering to humans?

It's not real Floo.

ippy

Are you trying to tell me the deity doesn't exist? SHOCK HORROR!

[Alan Burns]

Barcelona should sign you, as you do more side-steps and swerves than Lionel Messi.   Very nice swerve round the questions there - God is being intelligent, when he intervenes, but also very cleverly leaves nature alone, when we get something nasty.  It makes perfect sense, if your use of logic is as baggy and elastic as my granny's drawers.

I am sure that the subject of God allowing suffering to take place has been well discussed in the past, and books have been written about it, such as CS Lewis "The Problem of Pain".
The simple truth remains that we can't simply use suffering as a means to prove that God does not exist.  Jesus Himself edured suffering to open up the way to Heaven.  My faith in God's love is not diminished by the fact that suffering exists.

[wigginhall]

Barcelona should sign you, as you do more side-steps and swerves than Lionel Messi.   Very nice swerve round the questions there - God is being intelligent, when he intervenes, but also very cleverly leaves nature alone, when we get something nasty.  It makes perfect sense, if your use of logic is as baggy and elastic as my granny's drawers.

I am sure that the subject of God allowing suffering to take place has been well discussed in the past, and books have been written about it, such as CS Lewis "The Problem of Pain".
The simple truth remains that we can't simply use suffering as a means to prove that God does not exist.  Jesus Himself edured suffering to open up the way to Heaven.  My faith in God's love is not diminished by the fact that suffering exists.

I'm not trying to prove that God doesn't exist.   I just think your position is basically dishonest, because on the one hand, you say that God is intelligent, and intervenes in human existence, but on the other hand, stands by, while much suffering goes on, because we will find restitution after death.   Obviously you find that position consistent and satisfying.   Good luck with that. 

[torridon]

Barcelona should sign you, as you do more side-steps and swerves than Lionel Messi.   Very nice swerve round the questions there - God is being intelligent, when he intervenes, but also very cleverly leaves nature alone, when we get something nasty.  It makes perfect sense, if your use of logic is as baggy and elastic as my granny's drawers.

I am sure that the subject of God allowing suffering to take place has been well discussed in the past, and books have been written about it, such as CS Lewis "The Problem of Pain".
The simple truth remains that we can't simply use suffering as a means to prove that God does not exist.  Jesus Himself edured suffering to open up the way to Heaven.  My faith in God's love is not diminished by the fact that suffering exists.

Perhaps suffering is an indicator that heaven does not exist. We can only know happiness because there is sadness; we can only know pleasure because we also know pain. Undifferentiated happiness would be meaningless, not happy.

[ippy]

Barcelona should sign you, as you do more side-steps and swerves than Lionel Messi.   Very nice swerve round the questions there - God is being intelligent, when he intervenes, but also very cleverly leaves nature alone, when we get something nasty.  It makes perfect sense, if your use of logic is as baggy and elastic as my granny's drawers.

I am sure that the subject of God allowing suffering to take place has been well discussed in the past, and books have been written about it, such as CS Lewis "The Problem of Pain".
The simple truth remains that we can't simply use suffering as a means to prove that God does not exist.  Jesus Himself edured suffering to open up the way to Heaven.  My faith in God's love is not diminished by the fact that suffering exists.

Bringing on suffering like, some deny rather than suffer and others would rather suffer than deny; wouldn't the latter be scouting for brownie points for a place in their imaginary heaven?

ippy

[Shaker]

I am sure that the subject of God allowing suffering to take place has been well discussed in the past, and books have been written about it, such as CS Lewis "The Problem of Pain".

Very well discussed indeed. Still no answers, alas.

The simple truth remains that we can't simply use suffering as a means to prove that God does not exist.

I'm not sure that anybody does argue in such a manner. What you're probably getting confused with is the fact (and it is a fact) that the existence of suffering and the existence of a traditional omnimax god are irreconcilable, and that since suffering exists at least one of the omnis has to go. If, for your own reasons, you're desperate to hang on to a god at all costs and no matter what, suffering forces you to be rather slippery and subtle (to say the least) about what sort of god you're prepared to believe in.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I am sure that the subject of God allowing suffering to take place has been well discussed in the past, and books have been written about it, such as CS Lewis "The Problem of Pain".

Very well discussed indeed. Still no answers, alas.

The simple truth remains that we can't simply use suffering as a means to prove that God does not exist.

I'm not sure that anybody does argue in such a manner. What you're probably getting confused with is the fact (and it is a fact) that the existence of suffering and the existence of a traditional omnimax god are irreconcilable, and that since suffering exists at least one of the omnis has to go. If, for your own reasons, you're desperate to hang on to a god at all costs and no matter what, suffering forces you to be rather slippery and subtle (to say the least) about what sort of god you're prepared to believe in.

What I'm finding difficult is that for you guys virtually everything turns out to be an illusion.....Illusion of self. illusion of free will, illusion of happiness ......and then when you think you have got something to nail God on......suddenly suffering is real!!!