Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

I think the real problem with Humans (the TV series) is simply that what we generally work on in terms of what we regard as human consciousness is in many ways related to appearance. Given that it seems impossible to break down the problem of hard solipsism, we work on the basis of empathy by looking alike. The others may all be zombies but we know we, the individual is not, and we judge that by their similarity to us visually and by communication. There are sensible reasons why the Turing Test is nit done face to monitor but monitor to monitor. Should we have something indistinguishable from us visually we would give a pass everytime.

Perhaps that is the reason for the unhappy valley that exists for humans dealing with robots that look almost like us, the weird quivering idea that if we treat them as almost real, it will expose everyone else to us, and vice versa, as almost false. I have gazed in the eyes of a man about to punch someone and an orangutan about to pick a banana and I felt more understanding and empathy with the orangutan by far. Most of my communication is not verbal, almost none of my empathy is.

Alan is right in that even in experiencing the sole consciousness we do directly, we have no real understanding of it, but it is mere incredulous line drawing to think that it is those that look enough like us, or use a specific means of communication, as opposed to all the others we share, that somehow have moved across an invisible line, and that line is a significant line in terms of worth.

[Nearly Sane]

I am fully aware of what electrons buzzing round in a computer are capable of.  I have been developing computer software since 1968 and I am still doing it.  Computers are just machines programmed to respond to data which can be input from various sources.  But I can assure you that self awareness is not possible within a computer.

Yet - but you can't rule it out in the future.

It is certainly capable of mimicking self awareness with a bit of clever programming, but essentially it is just a complex machine made from bits and pieces which each react according to scientific laws.

Probably much like us then but on a simpler level.

Part of the problem of the justified mysterianism that Alan adopts, is that if we do not understand consciousness then we cannot rule out that there are computers that currently have it. Alan's unthinking jump across the barrier of hard solipsism then results in his unjustified squirrelling about language as being an asserted sine qua non of consciousness with no reasoning other than desperation. It also, of course, means that since foetuses and babies  cannot talk then they have no souls.

At base if we do not understand consciousness at all, as is Alan's position, then putting these (arbitrary) conditions such as being able to read a book on it, are logically specious. And that said I am not sure how we can say computers are not conscious.

[Nearly Sane]

Hi Len, my wife's encounter with psychology was very enlightening as was my niece's study of the subject my wife got as far as her A level  GCSE my niece has had her doctorate for a long time now and the both have commented about the struggle the religious believing students have with the various courses, some pack up doing the courses because of these beliefs and a lot drop their connection with religion, even then if they hang on to their religion, some do, it visibly shakes them.

Not that I'm calling them horses but that's straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

ippy
     

One of my closest friends from our local church is a professor of psychology employed by the NHS.  He is a very devout Christian with a strong faith which has certainly not been dented by his knowledge of psychology.  There is no incompatibility with Christian faith.

Alan is right on this. The idea that some form of training gives you an objective and unique insight into something like religious belief is laughable. Don't believe me, ask an economist, and another one and another one .... And get back to when the people with training all agree

[ippy]

Hi Len, my wife's encounter with psychology was very enlightening as was my niece's study of the subject my wife got as far as her A level  GCSE my niece has had her doctorate for a long time now and the both have commented about the struggle the religious believing students have with the various courses, some pack up doing the courses because of these beliefs and a lot drop their connection with religion, even then if they hang on to their religion, some do, it visibly shakes them.

Not that I'm calling them horses but that's straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

ippy
     

One of my closest friends from our local church is a professor of psychology employed by the NHS.  He is a very devout Christian with a strong faith which has certainly not been dented by his knowledge of psychology.  There is no incompatibility with Christian faith.

Wrong, don't take my word for it, get him to take a poll, neither of you by the sound of it would like the result very much I can assure you.

My niece has just picked up an MBE for the charity that she started, the MBE was awarded to the charity overall not to my niece as an individual; anyway  my dad's better looking than your dad.

ippy 

Ippy

[Alan Burns]

Crunch crunch; the sound of goal posts being moved.

OK so now you agree animals are aware, but now you are pinning your position on self awareness.  Well,,, small human children are not self aware; on the other hand adult chimps, elephants, dolphins and a number of other species do develop self awareness.  You are tying yourself in knots trying to prove that humans are fundamentally different to other species.  What is unique about humans is our language skills, our ability to ponder abstract problems over extended time periods; we are the chatting ape, the contemplative ape, the problem solving ape.

Awareness and self awareness are the same thing.  To be aware of anything you must also be aware of yourself.  The animal's reaction to what its sensory organs detect might be interpreted as awareness in human eyes, but it can be fully explained in terms of chain reaction events without the need for awareness to be involved.  A child's awareness will not be apparent until the sensory organs are sufficiently developed to deliver data to the brain, where the data can be perceived by the human soul.  The list of unique abilities you attribute to humans all require some form of awareness, for example to be aware of the meaning behind abstract shapes (text) and sounds (speech).  I know that robots may be programmed to react to speech as though they interpret a meaning to it, but it will in effect just be a complex set of programmed reactions.

And I am quite certain that the attribute of self awareness in man made machines will only ever exist in science fiction.

[Shaker]

You seem to be 'quite certain' and 'absolutely sure' of a great many things of which more thoughtful, aware and even minimally philosophically literate people would never say this.

[jjohnjil]

But how do electrons buzzing about in your brain actually get perceived as thoughts?

I can't improve on JJ's excellent response, Alan, although I appreciate that it will not satisfy you because you want the answer to be "God".

I think Alan's latest post proves you right there, Len!

[Nearly Sane]

Hi Len, my wife's encounter with psychology was very enlightening as was my niece's study of the subject my wife got as far as her A level  GCSE my niece has had her doctorate for a long time now and the both have commented about the struggle the religious believing students have with the various courses, some pack up doing the courses because of these beliefs and a lot drop their connection with religion, even then if they hang on to their religion, some do, it visibly shakes them.

Not that I'm calling them horses but that's straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

ippy
     

One of my closest friends from our local church is a professor of psychology employed by the NHS.  He is a very devout Christian with a strong faith which has certainly not been dented by his knowledge of psychology.  There is no incompatibility with Christian faith.

Wrong, don't take my word for it, get him to take a poll, neither of you by the sound of it would like the result very much I can assure you.

My niece has just picked up an MBE for the charity that she started, the MBE was awarded to the charity overall not to my niece as an individual; anyway  my dad's better looking than your dad.

ippy 

Ippy

Argument by irrelevant MBE

[Maeght]

And I am quite certain that the attribute of self awareness in man made machines will only ever exist in science fiction.

That's good, glad you're certain.

[ippy]

Hi Len, my wife's encounter with psychology was very enlightening as was my niece's study of the subject my wife got as far as her A level  GCSE my niece has had her doctorate for a long time now and the both have commented about the struggle the religious believing students have with the various courses, some pack up doing the courses because of these beliefs and a lot drop their connection with religion, even then if they hang on to their religion, some do, it visibly shakes them.

Not that I'm calling them horses but that's straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

ippy
     

One of my closest friends from our local church is a professor of psychology employed by the NHS.  He is a very devout Christian with a strong faith which has certainly not been dented by his knowledge of psychology.  There is no incompatibility with Christian faith.

Wrong, don't take my word for it, get him to take a poll, neither of you by the sound of it would like the result very much I can assure you.

My niece has just picked up an MBE for the charity that she started, the MBE was awarded to the charity overall not to my niece as an individual; anyway  my dad's better looking than your dad.

ippy 

Ippy

Argument by irrelevant MBE

Thus the My Dad's better looking than your Dad, get it now?

ippy

[ippy]

Hi Len, my wife's encounter with psychology was very enlightening as was my niece's study of the subject my wife got as far as her A level  GCSE my niece has had her doctorate for a long time now and the both have commented about the struggle the religious believing students have with the various courses, some pack up doing the courses because of these beliefs and a lot drop their connection with religion, even then if they hang on to their religion, some do, it visibly shakes them.

Not that I'm calling them horses but that's straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

ippy
     

One of my closest friends from our local church is a professor of psychology employed by the NHS.  He is a very devout Christian with a strong faith which has certainly not been dented by his knowledge of psychology.  There is no incompatibility with Christian faith.

Alan is right on this. The idea that some form of training gives you an objective and unique insight into something like religious belief is laughable. Don't believe me, ask an economist, and another one and another one .... And get back to when the people with training all agree

I'm sure psychology has something to do with how the brain works amongst a lot of other things?

ippy

[Alan Burns]

anyway  my dad's better looking than your dad.
Ippy

I have to concede that this may well be true.  Though my dad was a lovely man, even in my earliest childhood recollections he was bald, pot bellied and had no teeth 

[Alan Burns]

And I am quite certain that the attribute of self awareness in man made machines will only ever exist in science fiction.

That's good, glad you're certain.

My certainty stems from the fact that at the heart of a computer there are just bits of silicon passing electric current.  Further analysis of anything going on within the computer is gained only in the perception of human beings, not by the computer itself.

[Dicky Underpants]

"Spirituality," for me, is "an awareness that there is something far greater than we are, something that created this universe, created life and that we are an authentic, important, significant part of it, and can contribute to its evolution.” - Elizabeth-Kubler-Ross.

I suppose given she taught Jesus when she was Isabel she might claim to know something

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20074920,00.html

From the above:

Kübler-Ross is equally unswerving in her belief in an afterlife. Until meeting Barham, she says, she had encountered only one entity, named Willie, but has since met three others—Aenka, Salem and Mario. She sometimes plays a tape recording to audiences of a male voice talking and singing, and identifies it as Willie's. She also maintains she lived during the time of Christ as "Isabel," one of his teachers.

Mercy on us! Is Bashers now quoting from a Swiss 'psychologist' who seems to have swallowed the beliefs of Spiritualism and Reincarnation? He'll be quoting Shirley MacClean next on how she was once Queen Nefertiti, or something (strange how these celebrity pundits never record their incarnations as kipper-smokers or turnip-pullers). Well, good old Bashers - this from the man who had the audacity to say that "Bishop John Robinson was a loony whose theology was weak".

[Maeght]

And I am quite certain that the attribute of self awareness in man made machines will only ever exist in science fiction.

That's good, glad you're certain.

My certainty stems from the fact that at the heart of a computer there are just bits of silicon passing electric current.  Further analysis of anything going on within the computer is gained only in the perception of human beings, not by the computer itself.

And in the brains of humans there are electrical currents just the same - the clear difference at the moment is the level of complexity rather than the fundamental process. Who knows what could happen with computers in the future - no can be certain.

[torridon]

Crunch crunch; the sound of goal posts being moved.

OK so now you agree animals are aware, but now you are pinning your position on self awareness.  Well,,, small human children are not self aware; on the other hand adult chimps, elephants, dolphins and a number of other species do develop self awareness.  You are tying yourself in knots trying to prove that humans are fundamentally different to other species.  What is unique about humans is our language skills, our ability to ponder abstract problems over extended time periods; we are the chatting ape, the contemplative ape, the problem solving ape.

Awareness and self awareness are the same thing.  To be aware of anything you must also be aware of yourself.... 

That's incorrect; self awareness is a richer variety of awareness requiring higher cognitive development, hence although all animals have awareness, only a few are regarded as having achieved self-awareness also. This means that an elephant in effect knows that it is an elephant, but your pet dog, not being self-aware, does not know that it is a dog. I remember from my own early childhood, the period when I became aware that I was a person, and all the other persons I saw were also persons like me in their own right. Being self-aware is a complex phenomenon, it is more than mere proprioception.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

[Shaker]

Mercy on us! Is Bashers now quoting from a Swiss 'psychologist' who seems to have swallowed the beliefs of Spiritualism and Reincarnation? He'll be quoting Shirley MacClean next on how she was once Queen Nefertiti, or something (strange how these celebrity pundits never record their incarnations as kipper-smokers or turnip-pullers). Well, good old Bashers - this from the man who had the audacity to say that "Bishop John Robinson was a loony whose theology was weak".

Bravo! 

[Alan Burns]

And in the brains of humans there are electrical currents just the same - the clear difference at the moment is the level of complexity rather than the fundamental process. Who knows what could happen with computers in the future - no can be certain.

I think you have just highlighted a reason for belief in the human soul.
Complexity only exists in the eye of the beholder.  Atoms and molecules posess the same complexity in a piece of rock as they do in a human brain.  The complexity of the neural networks in the brain exists in perception, not in the elements themselves.

[Maeght]

And in the brains of humans there are electrical currents just the same - the clear difference at the moment is the level of complexity rather than the fundamental process. Who knows what could happen with computers in the future - no can be certain.

I think you have just highlighted a reason for belief in the human soul.
Complexity only exists in the eye of the beholder.  Atoms and molecules posess the same complexity in a piece of rock as they do in a human brain.  The complexity of the neural networks in the brain exists in perception, not in the elements themselves.

No they exist in reality; in the way the basic parts are put together, the processes carried out by the structures which the atoms and molecules form. The complexity and most likely our consciousness is due to the complex way in which simple basic elements are put together and interact. Certainly no need to believe in some external non material soul.

[Alan Burns]

Awareness and self awareness are the same thing.  To be aware of anything you must also be aware of yourself.... 

That's incorrect; self awareness is a richer variety of awareness requiring higher cognitive development, hence although all animals have awareness, only a few are regarded as having achieved self-awareness also. This means that an elephant in effect knows that it is an elephant, but your pet dog, not being self-aware, does not know that it is a dog. I remember from my own early childhood, the period when I became aware that I was a person, and all the other persons I saw were also persons like me in their own right. Being self-aware is a complex phenomenon, it is more than mere proprioception.

We can only make assumptions about animal awareness based on external behaviour, which may or may not be true.  The only awareness we know for sure is our own.  I know that animals with bigger brains exhibit more complex behaviour, but I still see no evidence of the ability to exert conscious free will choices in the way humans do.

[Alan Burns]

No they exist in reality; in the way the basic parts are put together, the processes carried out by the structures which the atoms and molecules form. The complexity and most likely our consciousness is due to the complex way in which simple basic elements are put together and interact. Certainly no need to believe in some external non material soul.

But the complexity is only seen by you.  The basic parts exist as basic parts.  A chess playing computer is not aware of the moves it makes or of the analysis made between each move.  It is only the human opponent who is aware of these things.

[Maeght]

No they exist in reality; in the way the basic parts are put together, the processes carried out by the structures which the atoms and molecules form. The complexity and most likely our consciousness is due to the complex way in which simple basic elements are put together and interact. Certainly no need to believe in some external non material soul.

But the complexity is only seen by you.  The basic parts exist as basic parts.  A chess playing computer is not aware of the moves it makes or of the analysis made between each move.  It is only the human opponent who is aware of these things.

Not sure what you mean by all that. The complexity is seen by fMRI scans for one. Of course basic parts exist as basic parts but it is how they come together to form structures and how these structures act which is complex.

[ippy]

anyway  my dad's better looking than your dad.
Ippy

I have to concede that this may well be true.  Though my dad was a lovely man, even in my earliest childhood recollections he was bald, pot bellied and had no teeth 

Just trying to lighten the tone.

It does concern me when I read the things you think you believe, it's like a parallel universe to me I really do consider that your analysis of how things work whatever it is that you think is real and what isn't needs some serious rejigging.

If you were to dump all of the religious stuff I can't see that you as an individual would be any different other than you'd have more time for the important things in life.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Not sure what you mean by all that. The complexity is seen by fMRI scans for one. Of course basic parts exist as basic parts but it is how they come together to form structures and how these structures act which is complex.

The complexity of an MRI scan is only perceived by human awareness.  The actual results of the MRI scan are just pixels on a screen, which individually are not complex.  It requires human interpretation to formulate the complexity.

[BashfulAnthony]

"Spirituality," for me, is "an awareness that there is something far greater than we are, something that created this universe, created life and that we are an authentic, important, significant part of it, and can contribute to its evolution.” - Elizabeth-Kubler-Ross.

I suppose given she taught Jesus when she was Isabel she might claim to know something

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20074920,00.html

From the above:

Kübler-Ross is equally unswerving in her belief in an afterlife. Until meeting Barham, she says, she had encountered only one entity, named Willie, but has since met three others—Aenka, Salem and Mario. She sometimes plays a tape recording to audiences of a male voice talking and singing, and identifies it as Willie's. She also maintains she lived during the time of Christ as "Isabel," one of his teachers.

Mercy on us! Is Bashers now quoting from a Swiss 'psychologist' who seems to have swallowed the beliefs of Spiritualism and Reincarnation? He'll be quoting Shirley MacClean next on how she was once Queen Nefertiti, or something (strange how these celebrity pundits never record their incarnations as kipper-smokers or turnip-pullers). Well, good old Bashers - this from the man who had the audacity to say that "Bishop John Robinson was a loony whose theology was weak".

All these sad "experts" on philosophy, theology, psychology, science generally; all-knowing experts.  In reality, a bunch of has-been nerds sitting in their little back-rooms, googling like crazy and pontificating about things they really have no perception of.   Get a life; get wise. You are pathetic.   (Sits back and waits for the usual reaction of vitriol and denial.)