Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3863355 times)

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1875 on: June 30, 2015, 08:44:07 PM »

Not sure what you mean by all that. The complexity is seen by fMRI scans for one. Of course basic parts exist as basic parts but it is how they come together to form structures and how these structures act which is complex.
The complexity of an MRI scan is only perceived by human awareness.  The actual results of the MRI scan are just pixels on a screen, which individually are not complex.  It requires human interpretation to formulate the complexity.

So?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1876 on: June 30, 2015, 08:54:05 PM »

Quote
Awareness and self awareness are the same thing.  To be aware of anything you must also be aware of yourself.... 

That's incorrect; self awareness is a richer variety of awareness requiring higher cognitive development, hence although all animals have awareness, only a few are regarded as having achieved self-awareness also. This means that an elephant in effect knows that it is an elephant, but your pet dog, not being self-aware, does not know that it is a dog. I remember from my own early childhood, the period when I became aware that I was a person, and all the other persons I saw were also persons like me in their own right. Being self-aware is a complex phenomenon, it is more than mere proprioception.

We can only make assumptions about animal awareness based on external behaviour, which may or may not be true.  The only awareness we know for sure is our own.  I know that animals with bigger brains exhibit more complex behaviour, but I still see no evidence of the ability to exert conscious free will choices in the way humans do.

How do you explain Koko the gorilla then?

Born in 1971 in San Francisco Zoo, Koko is the subject of a groundbreaking science experiment to determine the true intelligence of gorillas. Although she can’t vocalize like a human, she can understand spoken words and communicate her thoughts and feelings with hand signals.
Gorillas Have Self-Awareness

Her trainer, Dr Francine Patterson, has also seen her invent new signs of her own - like the combination of signs for "finger-bracelet" to describe a ring. Koko even demonstrated that she feels emotions much like a human being. She once asked if she could have a cat and chose out a gray male Manx as her pet, which she cared for as a baby. Later that year, the cat escaped and was hit by a car. When Patterson explained the cat had gone, Koko signed "bad-sad-bad" and "frown-cry-frown-sad". After that, Koko the gorilla was able to pick out two new kittens which became her surrogate babies.

Today, Koko is 42 years old and describes herself as a "fine-gorilla-person", amazing her friends and caregivers with her intelligence and emotional depth


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAbS20ytwws

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_%28gorilla%29
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1877 on: June 30, 2015, 09:27:07 PM »

It does concern me when I read the things you think you believe, it's like a parallel universe to me I really do consider that your analysis of how things work whatever it is that you think is real and what isn't needs some serious rejigging.

If you were to dump all of the religious stuff I can't see that you as an individual would be any different other than you'd have more time for the important things in life.

ippy
It saddens me that you can't see the basic concepts behind our existence in the way I do.  You probably think that I have formulated my views on reality in order to justify my faith.  And I do believe that my faith has given me insights into the truth, but I also believe that my concepts of reality stand up in their own right.  There has to be a missing link of some sort to convert the data stored in our brain cells to the perception of reality we all experience.  There is something which drives our thoughts, driven by what I percieve to be free will.  Our soul sets us free from the deterministic chains of science.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1878 on: July 01, 2015, 09:28:45 AM »

It does concern me when I read the things you think you believe, it's like a parallel universe to me I really do consider that your analysis of how things work whatever it is that you think is real and what isn't needs some serious rejigging.

If you were to dump all of the religious stuff I can't see that you as an individual would be any different other than you'd have more time for the important things in life.

ippy
It saddens me that you can't see the basic concepts behind our existence in the way I do.  You probably think that I have formulated my views on reality in order to justify my faith.  And I do believe that my faith has given me insights into the truth, but I also believe that my concepts of reality stand up in their own right.  There has to be a missing link of some sort to convert the data stored in our brain cells to the perception of reality we all experience.  There is something which drives our thoughts, driven by what I percieve to be free will.  Our soul sets us free from the deterministic chains of science.

This just sounds like a load more old tosh to me where you, it seems to me are trying to make things up to fill up/ bend things to fit ideas that are really nonsense ideas in the first place.

How do you know your insights that you think are insights into the truth are any more true than anyone else's views are about the true nature of things? 

You have a need to think that there's a fat controller out there somewhere, I don't share that need but if you or anyone else can come up with some credible evidence for these far fetched ideas of yours; well until some one can.

Things like a soul, well really, there's not a shred of evidence that would support that sort of idea, nor would it make a jot of difference if the idea was completely discarded.

ippy     
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 02:34:22 PM by ippy »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1879 on: July 02, 2015, 09:58:16 AM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1880 on: July 02, 2015, 10:12:24 AM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

Your position seems to be that if someone states they don't believe and explains why, then they must be lying - can you see the logical problem with that?

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1881 on: July 02, 2015, 10:25:03 AM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.
Some people seek the truth by eliminating the false.  'Believing in him' is just that, a belief.  A belief is not the truth.  Some children believe in Santa Claus, why, because they are conditioned to do so.  In order to see the truth  of the situation, the conditioning has to be removed.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1882 on: July 02, 2015, 11:28:44 AM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1883 on: July 02, 2015, 11:37:52 AM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
As many times before,if someone honestly believes something then they are not lying even if they are incorrect.

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1884 on: July 02, 2015, 12:04:13 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1885 on: July 02, 2015, 12:04:39 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
As many times before,if someone honestly believes something then they are not lying even if they are incorrect.
What NS said.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1886 on: July 02, 2015, 12:06:47 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Verifiable by a methodology - have you got one yet?

Best explanation for what?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1887 on: July 02, 2015, 12:46:15 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Something supernatural would not explain anything.  There's no real difference between 'goddidit' and 'my magic pet dragon did it'.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1888 on: July 02, 2015, 12:52:29 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

A good reason to keep from believing in him is that there isn't any good reason to believe in him. There can never be any real evidence for something supernatural by definition; therefore there can never be real grounds for belief. Hence believers have to fall back on faith. Faith is an excuse for belief, not a reason for belief.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1889 on: July 02, 2015, 01:36:22 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?
It isn't. For an explanation actually to be an explanation, it has to really explain stuff, and not in the pseudo-explanatory way of invoking gods.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1890 on: July 02, 2015, 01:38:04 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Why?

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1891 on: July 02, 2015, 01:42:44 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

People can seek the truth about God and still not have a belief in God you know.

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1892 on: July 02, 2015, 01:44:51 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Verifiable by a methodology - have you got one yet?
Yes, thanks.
Quote

Best explanation for what?
The life, death and alleged resurrection of Jesus Christ, for starters. Bung in the philosophical arguments and, yes, it is the best explanation.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1893 on: July 02, 2015, 01:46:01 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Something supernatural would not explain anything.
Atheist mantra alert!
Quote
There's no real difference between 'goddidit' and 'my magic pet dragon did it'.
Er, you might argue that there is no way of distinguishing between the two (and I'd query you on that), but your statement is a very silly one.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1894 on: July 02, 2015, 01:47:16 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?
It isn't. For an explanation actually to be an explanation, it has to really explain stuff, and not in the pseudo-explanatory way of invoking gods.
So why do you think it does not really explain stuff.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1895 on: July 02, 2015, 01:47:45 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?

Why?
Why do you ask, "Why?"?
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Andy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1896 on: July 02, 2015, 01:48:40 PM »
Something supernatural would not explain anything.
Atheist mantra alert!

If it was atheist mantra, you wouldn't get people like wigginhall agreeing.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1897 on: July 02, 2015, 01:52:16 PM »
...  it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

Sass,
I think the contents of neary two thousand posts on this thread shows that your opening comment above has been well verified.

There is NO verifiable truth regarding the existence of any deity, anyone who states there is LIES! ::)
Verifiable truth? Verifiable by whom?

What about the existence of the Christian God just being the best explanation?
It isn't. For an explanation actually to be an explanation, it has to really explain stuff, and not in the pseudo-explanatory way of invoking gods.
So why do you think it does not really explain stuff.
Because there's no way of verifying any such claims to be true. There's no methodology to be able to do this job. I notice that you've just claimed that you have such a methodology, but I know full well that if I ask you what it is you'll dodge the question exactly as you have with every other person every other time you've been challenged on this. Which is a hell of a lot.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alien

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1898 on: July 02, 2015, 02:01:04 PM »
Something supernatural would not explain anything.
Atheist mantra alert!

If it was atheist mantra, you wouldn't get people like wigginhall agreeing.
Why not? I didn't say it was "atheist-only mantra".
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Andy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #1899 on: July 02, 2015, 02:03:17 PM »
Something supernatural would not explain anything.
Atheist mantra alert!

If it was atheist mantra, you wouldn't get people like wigginhall agreeing.
Why not? I didn't say it was "atheist-only mantra".

Well you're either atheist or you're not, so it's just mantra then and there's no need to say it's atheist.