Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

But the very act of imagining this scenario requires me to invoke my God given gift of free will which you claim to be non existent.

Remember what I said about begging the question ...?
 

[Shaker]

If you really want to, you can always find a reason not to believe.  The Devil has them in abundance.

So are you stating as a matter of fact that scepticism, rationality, logic and critical thinking and so forth are creations of this devil chappy? Is that your position?

[floo]

I think you misunderstand the central message of the Christian Gospels.  I know many of us fall short of what God wants, but it is quite the opposite of self centredness.  We are called to love God with all our heart and strength, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.

How on earth can you love something which probably doesn't exist, and even if it does, what is attributed to it isn't in the least bit loveable?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But the very act of imagining this scenario requires me to invoke my God given gift of free will which you claim to be non existent.

No it doesn't - that's the fallacy of reification again, and it requires no such thing.

How can I ever have the power to deliberately invoke an imaginary scenario if every event in my brain is driven by naturally determined forces over which there is no control?

Very easily - your mind has received a stimulus from a different mind (mine) that could cause it to do that.

I see by the way that you just completely ignored the point - namely that surprising outcomes happen with exactly the frequency you'd expect whether or not they're prayed for, and thus that invoking "God" when the outcome happens to be one you want fails Occam's razor.

Why did you do that?

[Rhiannon]

It is very easy to point out people who suffer terrible misfortune.  But no earthly life is free from suffering, and God has promised that those who believe in Him will be given strength to endure whatever comes.

And those who don't and can't are as weak as piss. You are a piece of work.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

AB,

What I want is nether here nor there. I find that I can't believe in "God" for exactly the same reason that you can't believe in leprechauns:

That's been shown to be crap time and time and time and time and time again.
Time to change the record.

[Enki]

I firmly believe that every sincere prayer said in faith does get answered to fulfil our needs.  If every prayer for healing was answered in the way we wished, none of us would get to heaven because we would never leave this earth!  God must recognise that spiritual health is more important than physical needs.  But having said that, I can look back on my life and see how wonderfully God has answered my prayers - for my education, my career, my marriage, my children, and for my wonderful parents.  Having started off life in a one bedroom terraced house in Middlesbrough where we lived as a family of five with my elder brother and sister, then transferred to Thorntree council estate described as one of the most deprived areas in England, I must have had many opportunities to feel sorry for myself.  However, I believe that every second of our lives on this earth is a precious gift from God, and sadly, we take so many of His gifts for granted.

Some of us can also refer to our very poor beginnings, Alan, if we so wished. Some of us have had a good education, good careers, good marriages, children who have done well and parents who have been caring and constant. Some of us have relations who have risen above severe physical disabilities with constant and innate optimism. And some of us have achieved all this without any thought of praying, or indeed any thought of God at all. So what? I've never felt the need to feel sorry for myself. As Shaker says, it's basically a combination of luck and hard work.

What you believe is entirely up to you, but it is of no importance whatsoever to a person such as myself.

[Shaker]

That's been shown to be crap time and time and time and time and time again.

Must have missed that. Who did so and when?

Time to change the record.

Says the man who minutes previously has just wheeled out Stalinism ...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Fallacy Boy,

That's been shown to be crap time and time and time and time and time again.
Time to change the record.

So you assert. All you need to do now then is to tell us where that happened. Just one example will be fine.

After all, you wouldn't want to be caught out in yet another lie now would you.

I won't hold my breath.

[Sebastian Toe]

If you really want to, you can always find a reason not to believe.  The Devil has them in abundance.

He does?
What does he do wth them and how does he do it?

[wigginhall]

And those who don't and can't are as weak as piss. You are a piece of work.

Yes, at times, AB just seems very child-like in his ideas, but this stuff about suffering and miracles is obscene.   We can't have too many miracles of healing because then secularists would see them as natural, and God can't allow that, so let's have some more babies dying of brain cancer - it's quite bracing really.   And anyway, I've done alright for myself, so God loves me, never mind the rest.   Sick, or what?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

Yes, at times, AB just seems very child-like in his ideas, but this stuff about suffering and miracles is obscene.   We can't have too many miracles of healing because then secularists would see them as natural, and God can't allow that, so let's have some more babies dying of brain cancer - it's quite bracing really.   And anyway, I've done alright for myself, so God loves me, never mind the rest.   Sick, or what?

There seems to be a sort of innocent evil about him - he's too ignorant to understand how contemptible are the consequences of his "arguments", yet at the same time he presumes to have the moral high ground because he thinks he has god on his side.

It's quite chilling really - being impervious to reason, there really seems to be no limit to what he might do if the thinks his god requires it.

[wigginhall]

Wiggs,

There seems to be a sort of innocent evil about him - he's too ignorant to understand how contemptible are the consequences of his "arguments", yet at the same time he presumes to have the moral high ground because he thinks he has god on his side.

It's quite chilling really - being impervious to reason, there really seems to be no limit to what he might do if the thinks his god requires it.

Yes, it gives you an insight into how theocracies could carry out massive amounts of cruelty, because God stipulates it.   

[Rhiannon]

Yes, it gives you an insight into how theocracies could carry out massive amounts of cruelty, because God stipulates it.

And in a society such as ours it's ok to turn a blind eye to suffering, because if you pray for it to end and it doesn't, then God's answer to that prayer is that he wants the suffering to happen.

[floo]

And in a society such as ours it's ok to turn a blind eye to suffering, because if you pray for it to end and it doesn't, then God's answer to that prayer is that he wants the suffering to happen.

God has its reasons for allowing suffering and knows best, YEH RIGHT!

[wigginhall]

And in a society such as ours it's ok to turn a blind eye to suffering, because if you pray for it to end and it doesn't, then God's answer to that prayer is that he wants the suffering to happen.

Yes, I used to wonder how Christians could line up with pretty right-wing politicians, even fascists, but I think this is part of the answer.   God has placed the rich man in his castle, and the poor man at his gate, and it's sad that children die of cancer, but there you are, God knows best.   And anyway, we don't want taxes to go up too much to pay for better health treatment.   That's the devil talking.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Fallacy Boy,

So you assert. All you need to do now then is to tell us where that happened. Just one example will be fine.

After all, you wouldn't want to be caught out in yet another lie now would you.

I won't hold my breath.

People do not believe in Leprechauns for the same reason you don't believe in God Hillside to think that they do is projecting yourself or narcissism and egotism...or you haven't been listening to them which amounts to much the same thing really.

[floo]

People do not believe in Leprechauns for the same reason you don't believe in God Hillside to think that they do is projecting yourself or narcissism and egotism...or you haven't been listening to them which amounts to much the same thing really.

The existence of leprechauns is as credible as the existence of god.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Fallacy Boy,

People do not believe in Leprechauns for the same reason you don't believe in God Hillside…

So far, so good…
 

…to think that they do is projecting yourself or narcissism and egotism...

And then it collapsed into a non sequitur. The issue is about reason and logic not “narcissism and egotism”: when the reason for non-belief in each is the same – ie, no argument that isn’t hopeless – then that’s the beginning and end of it.

…or you haven't been listening to them which amounts to much the same thing really.

And he finishes with the fallacy of the false binary. Good effort FB.

So, now we know that you can’t cite an example of the analogy being falsified at all, can we agree that you’ve been caught out in yet another lie?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, I used to wonder how Christians could line up with pretty right-wing politicians, even fascists, but I think this is part of the answer.   God has placed the rich man in his castle, and the poor man at his gate, and it's sad that children die of cancer, but there you are, God knows best.   And anyway, we don't want taxes to go up too much to pay for better health treatment.   That's the devil talking.

So let me get this straight............ more and more Christians want to pay less and less tax...but there are less and less Christians and less and less Health Care.

[Shaker]

There are fewer and fewer Christians but more and more people (48% - the highest since 2004) actively want to be taxed more to fund essential services: http://tinyurl.com/y8fepbnv

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Fallacy Boy,

So far, so good…
 
And then it collapsed into a non sequitur. The issue is about reason and logic not “narcissism and egotism”: when the reason for non-belief in each is the same – ie, no argument that isn’t hopeless – then that’s the beginning and end of it.

And he finishes with the fallacy of the false binary. Good effort FB.

So, now we know that you can’t cite an example of the analogy being falsified at all, can we agree that you’ve been caught out in yet another lie?

The issue is about you appearing to having an invincible and dogmatic view of what and how people believe.

We're back to you conflating God and Leprechauns (category error) and your argumentum ad ridiculum....same old same old.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Fallacy Boy,

Wiggs:

Yes, I used to wonder how Christians could line up with pretty right-wing politicians, even fascists, but I think this is part of the answer.   God has placed the rich man in his castle, and the poor man at his gate, and it's sad that children die of cancer, but there you are, God knows best.   And anyway, we don't want taxes to go up too much to pay for better health treatment.   That's the devil talking.

FB:

So let me get this straight............ more and more Christians want to pay less and less tax...but there are less and less Christians and less and less Health Care.

A jar of pickled onions for anyone who can work out the relationship between what Wiggs actually said and Fallacy Boy's "getting it straight" misrepresentation of it.

(We'll get to the proper uses of "less" and "fewer" another time perhaps...)   

[wigginhall]

So let me get this straight............ more and more Christians want to pay less and less tax...but there are less and less Christians and less and less Health Care.

The idea of you getting something straight is beyond hilarious. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There are fewer and fewer Christians but more and more people actively want to be taxed more to fund essential services: http://tinyurl.com/y8fepbnv

Yep, it's turned round a bit from April 2017. There is no correlation between the rise of people of no religion and a rise in people paying tax prior to that. Because prior to that they were largely Conservatives.