Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3864005 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19100 on: July 02, 2017, 03:35:53 PM »
Fallacy Boy,

Quote
The issue is about you appearing to having an invincible and dogmatic view of what and how people believe.

No, that's just yet another of your lies. The issue is actually about logic and reason - I can see why you'd want to pretend otherwise in favour of personalising the conversation, but that doesn't change the fact of it.

Quote
We're back to you conflating God and Leprechauns (category error) and your argumentum ad ridiculum....same old same old.

One sentence, two mistakes:

1. We're actually "back to" pointing out that a bad argument is a bad argument whether the outcome is "God", leprechauns or anything else. As you've never understood what "category error" actually means though, you're condemned to making the same mistake over and again.

2. There is no "argumentum ad ridiculum" at all - if you don't like "leprechauns", pick any other outcome of a bad argument. It makes no difference to the actual point rather than to your continued attempts to distract from it.   
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 03:55:10 PM by bluehillside »
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19101 on: July 02, 2017, 04:03:24 PM »
I firmly believe that every sincere prayer said in faith does get answered to fulfil our needs.  If every prayer for healing was answered in the way we wished, none of us would get to heaven because we would never leave this earth!  God must recognise that spiritual health is more important than physical needs.  But having said that, I can look back on my life and see how wonderfully God has answered my prayers - for my education, my career, my marriage, my children, and for my wonderful parents.  Having started off life in a one bedroom terraced house in Middlesbrough where we lived as a family of five with my elder brother and sister, then transferred to Thorntree council estate described as one of the most deprived areas in England, I must have had many opportunities to feel sorry for myself.  However, I believe that every second of our lives on this earth is a precious gift from God, and sadly, we take so many of His gifts for granted.

Well that's all very nice for you but not everyone apparently is so favoured by god.  Do all those desperate people risking life and limb to cross the Med in flimsy boats lead such blessed charmed lives ? You would admire a god who heaps gifts on you but leaves others to live out their wretched lives without any such help.  This makes no sense to me at all; a god with the power to do good without fear or favour rewarding just his acolytes it seems.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:17:48 PM by torridon »

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19102 on: July 02, 2017, 04:07:41 PM »
It's quite nauseating when you think about it.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19103 on: July 02, 2017, 04:15:25 PM »
torri,

Quote
This makes no sense to me at all; a god with the power to do good without fear or favour rewarding just his acolytes it seems.

It’s actually worse than that. This god we’re told is keen that people “worship” him, and when they do he’ll occasionally cure their children of leukaemia and screw those who don’t.

Fortunately the evidence tells us that that’s all nonsense, but it would be a pretty psychopathic god I’d have thought if there was any truth in the fable. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 04:17:46 PM by bluehillside »
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19104 on: July 02, 2017, 04:25:21 PM »
It's quite nauseating when you think about it.

Yes.   I should think some people in Grenfell were praying at their wit's end for help.   Still, God knows best, eh?   The kids who died just weren't on that week's lottery draw, sorry, I mean divine selection.   
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19105 on: July 02, 2017, 04:32:35 PM »
Yes.   I should think some people in Grenfell were praying at their wit's end for help.   Still, God knows best, eh?   The kids who died just weren't on that week's lottery draw, sorry, I mean divine selection.   

It's all in God's plan, Wiggs. If only you had faith it wouldn't bother you. You could instead devote your time to giving thanks for all the goodies you've got.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19106 on: July 02, 2017, 04:37:00 PM »
It's all in God's plan, Wiggs. If only you had faith it wouldn't bother you. You could instead devote your time to giving thanks for all the goodies you've got.

I live two miles from Grenfell, so I should thank God it wasn't me who got burned up, just those immigrants and poor black people, who were praying maybe, but God has to get his priorities right, as long as the white middle class are OK, God is good.  Maybe God is white and lives in a nice semi.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19107 on: July 02, 2017, 04:45:16 PM »
It's important that white people get good stuff so that they can tell brown people why they should be grateful. Or something.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19108 on: July 02, 2017, 05:01:27 PM »
And if anybody thinks that this thread has taken a rather bitter and cynical turn ... yes. And with good reason.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19109 on: July 02, 2017, 05:06:14 PM »
It's quite nauseating when you think about it.
Exactly what I have been thinking while reading AB's latest posts.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19110 on: July 02, 2017, 05:51:16 PM »
So are you stating as a matter of fact that scepticism, rationality, logic and critical thinking and so forth are creations of this devil chappy? Is that your position?
I can use rationality, logic and critical thinking to arrive at the conclusion that God must exist, so they are not the work of the Devil.  Not sure about scepticism.
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19111 on: July 02, 2017, 05:54:26 PM »
Yes.   I should think some people in Grenfell were praying at their wit's end for help.   Still, God knows best, eh?   The kids who died just weren't on that week's lottery draw, sorry, I mean divine selection.   
I have to say: on the contrary - those kids precisely were part of that week's lottery draw of life and death, a lottery being an entirely random and arbitrary thing applicable to the just and the unjust alike.

What they don't seem to have been is under the care of a purposeful, benevolent and even loving agency as no doubt Burns would have you believe.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19112 on: July 02, 2017, 05:58:53 PM »
I have to say: on the contrary - those kids precisely were part of that week's lottery draw of life and death, a lottery being an entirely random and arbitrary thing applicable to the just and the unjust alike.

What they don't seem to have been is under the care of a purposeful, benevolent and even loving agency as no doubt Burns would have you believe.

Yes.   And such a purposeful, benevolent and loving agency is a stinking dead dog lying next to the Grenfell Tower. 
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19113 on: July 02, 2017, 05:59:34 PM »
I can use rationality, logic and critical thinking to arrive at the conclusion that God must exist, so they are not the work of the Devil.
I see zero evidence of rationality, logic and critical thinking in anything you've ever posted. Your constant and continued use of just about every logical fallacy going confirms this.

I use rationality, logic and critical thinking and have concluded that the case(s) advanced for the existence of gods are a lamentable crock that supposed grown adults ought to be utterly embarrassed to advance as serious arguments. Where does that leave us?

Quote
Not sure about scepticism.
Why do you think that's different to the other things listed?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:02:01 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19114 on: July 02, 2017, 06:03:32 PM »
I can use rationality, logic and critical thinking to arrive at the conclusion that God must exist, so they are not the work of the Devil.  Not sure about scepticism.

Kindly demonstrate your workings so as to allow others of us to review your methods and conclusions.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19115 on: July 02, 2017, 06:17:04 PM »
It is very easy to point out people who suffer terrible misfortune.  But no earthly life is free from suffering, and God has promised that those who believe in Him will be given strength to endure whatever comes.

I can see that you really believe that, God has promised that those who believe in Him will be given strength to endure whatever comes, you seem totally unable to accept that this is only a belief of yours where there is zero evidence of any kind that stands up to any kind of rational or logical inspection and the lack of any method believers have to show how  they have been able to acquire the said knowledge that proves the case for these rather suspect beliefs; not so much you Alan, although you have come close to saying this, but when put to the test we get answers that more or less amount to saying the bible proves the bible.

I don't mind you saying more or less that we non-believers are being guided by satan, that comment is about as threatening as saying we're being guided by father christmas, and just about as likely, the comments you make about satan etc. quite frankly would be laughable if it wasn't so sad how you are so totally totally taken up or in by myth, magic and superstition.

ippy

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19116 on: July 02, 2017, 06:27:13 PM »
Kindly demonstrate your workings so as to allow others of us to review your methods and conclusions.

Seconded.

I certainly would like to hear arguments based upon rationality, logic and critical thinking which lead to the conclusion 'that God must exist.'

It also begs the question as to why Alan relies so much on assertions in attempting to get his points across. rather than using the aforementioned qualities.
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19117 on: July 02, 2017, 06:43:55 PM »
Seconded.

I certainly would like to hear arguments based upon rationality, logic and critical thinking which lead to the conclusion 'that God must exist.'

It also begs the question as to why Alan relies so much on assertions in attempting to get his points across. rather than using the aforementioned qualities.
He relies on it precisely because it's all he has, lacking those aforementioned qualities.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19118 on: July 02, 2017, 06:47:31 PM »
Seconded.

I certainly would like to hear arguments based upon rationality, logic and critical thinking which lead to the conclusion 'that God must exist.'

It also begs the question as to why Alan relies so much on assertions in attempting to get his points across. rather than using the aforementioned qualities.

I certainly would like to hear arguments based upon rationality, logic and critical thinking which lead to the conclusion 'that God must exist.'

It also begs the question as to why Alan relies so much on assertions in attempting to get his points across. rather than using the aforementioned qualities.


Thirded   

ippy

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19119 on: July 02, 2017, 07:21:34 PM »
I can use rationality, logic and critical thinking to arrive at the conclusion that God must exist, so they are not the work of the Devil.  Not sure about scepticism.
So, what is the "work of the Devil" and how exactly does he go about it?
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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19120 on: July 02, 2017, 09:32:08 PM »
Look, all anyone needs to remember is that Alan thinks kids being allowed to die, babies dying in their mother's arms, is an answer to prayer from his loving god. Anyone think there's a debate to be had still?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19121 on: July 02, 2017, 10:48:57 PM »
AB,

Quote
I can use rationality, logic and critical thinking to arrive at the conclusion that God must exist, so they are not the work of the Devil.  Not sure about scepticism.

You don’t understand the nature of logical fallacies. It’s not possible to make a bad argument into a good one because it happens to produce an outcome of which you approve – logic exists outside and independent of our opinions and preferences. In short, a bad argument is a bad argument is a bad argument. Whether it happens to be an attempt to demonstrate “God”, “Allah”, “Ra” or anything else doesn’t change that. The argument itself has to be valid on its own terms if you want the outcome to be demonstrated.

And the problem here is that, while you may claim that you “can use rationality, logic and critical thinking to arrive at the conclusion that God must exist” your attempts to do so here always collapse into very bad arguments. While you may find that satisfactory, because they do exist outside of opinions the rest of us can very quickly identify them as invalid.

Now that’s not to say that you necessarily don’t have arguments that are sound, but it is to say that you’ve never managed to produce one here.

What’s inconsistent too by the way is that, when your mistakes are explained to you, you dismiss logic and reason as "just man-made”, then in the next breath you tell us (albeit falsely) that you can use logic and reason to support you. So which is it – “man-made” and you’re possessed in some mysterious way of a better method, or a legitimate means of arguing a point only so far at least you’ve never manage to harness it to validate your faith beliefs? 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:16:33 AM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19122 on: July 03, 2017, 08:49:49 AM »
Fallacy Boy,

No, that's just yet another of your lies. The issue is actually about logic and reason - I can see why you'd want to pretend otherwise in favour of personalising the conversation, but that doesn't change the fact of it.

One sentence, two mistakes:

1. We're actually "back to" pointing out that a bad argument is a bad argument whether the outcome is "God", leprechauns or anything else. As you've never understood what "category error" actually means though, you're condemned to making the same mistake over and again.

2. There is no "argumentum ad ridiculum" at all - if you don't like "leprechauns", pick any other outcome of a bad argument. It makes no difference to the actual point rather than to your continued attempts to distract from it.   
Very entertaining.
After trying to refute that your line of argument is Leprechauns are ridiculous, Therefore God probably does not exist.
You are now IMHO saying there are Bad arguments therefore God probably doesn't exist. Leaps of faith going on here.

You can put up a bad argument for Leprechauns. You might even show that it is a bad argument for God. But then you've got to get from that to saying all arguments are bad without exposing the ground of your claim. Good luck with that....Now bring it on.

Now's the time to expose another thing.
An argument is made for something. A certain person changes any argument that something could be to an argument that something must be. All they win therefore is the argument that it doesn't have to be and not the argument that it might be.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 09:06:41 AM by Emergence-The Musical »

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19123 on: July 03, 2017, 09:03:42 AM »
You can put up a bad argument for Leprechauns. You might even show that it is a bad argument for God. But then you've got to get from that to saying all arguments are bad without exposing the ground of your claim. Good luck with that....Now bring it on.

Nobody is saying 'all arguments are bad', but you've just used a bad argument yourself (a fallacious straw man), therefore your argument (for want of a better term) can be dismissed.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #19124 on: July 03, 2017, 09:25:30 AM »
Nobody is saying 'all arguments are bad', but you've just used a bad argument yourself (a fallacious straw man), therefore your argument (for want of a better term) can be dismissed.
I disagree that ''nobody is saying all arguments for God are bad''. You yourself reckon there are no good arguments for God.

Even if you are right and one can be mealy mouthed and frame it as no arguments ''yet''. The charges still stand. A statement that a Bad argument is a bad argument is non sequitur and red herring. So what? we are entitled to ask.........

Of course it is made in an effort to implicate all arguments as bad arguments.

The whole picture is trying to negate arguments by non sequiturs and red herrings...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 09:38:42 AM by Emergence-The Musical »