Searching for GOD...

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.  Binding people together with rituals and beliefs is creating group think and as such is the enemy of diversity.  Indoctrination is always bad, it is a form of abuse.

As you are aware "indoctrination" is the word used by certain atheists on this forum to describe parents teaching their children religious values. This teaching of subjective values to children is not always bad, nor is it a form of abuse.

No, I don't think I am contradicting myself - there is diversity in society if there are lots of different groups holding different group rituals and beliefs interacting together in society. There are different groups within company boards, political parties and other organisations but they interact together to pursue common goals and bring different ideas and approaches on how to achieve agreed upon shared goals.

[Aruntraveller]

Ehhhhhhhhhhh?

FYI Floo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

[Nearly Sane]

Ehhhhhhhhhhh?

if you see only white swans, you are not justified in saying there are no black swans, simply that you are not aware if the existence of black swans.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

[floo]

But black swans do exist, whereas what evidence do we have any god exists? Just because I say there is no verifiable evidence, doesn't mean it isn't possible for a god to exist somewhere.

[Nearly Sane]

But black swans do exist, whereas what evidence do we have any god exists? Just because I say there is no verifiable evidence, doesn't mean it isn't possible for a god to exist somewhere.

At one time we didn't know black swans existed. At that time all we could say was there was no evidence THAT we were aware of for the existence of black swans. That a bloke just round the other side of the workdhad the evidence because he was eating one would not be known to us, but still meant that there was plenty if evidence at the time for the existence of black swans.

[torridon]

As you are aware "indoctrination" is the word used by certain atheists on this forum to describe parents teaching their children religious values. This teaching of subjective values to children is not always bad, nor is it a form of abuse.

No, I don't think I am contradicting myself - there is diversity in society if there are lots of different groups holding different group rituals and beliefs interacting together in society. There are different groups within company boards, political parties and other organisations but they interact together to pursue common goals and bring different ideas and approaches on how to achieve agreed upon shared goals.

Binding people together with rituals and beliefs creates group think, it creates us and them, it creates in groups and out groups.  This is why we end up with a muslim world and a christian world, all believers in god, but beyond that, their faiths do more to separate them rather than to facilitate integration and mutual understanding; it is a strategy that binds us back into the hands of tribalism.  Better in principle, I would say, to teach children how to think rather than what to think although I accept this is easy to say but not so easy to do in a society riven with cultural values and pressures and it is not always easy to draw a clear demarcation line between helpful empowering parenting and controlling manipulative parenting.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Binding people together with rituals and beliefs creates group think, it creates us and them, it creates in groups and out groups.  This is why we end up with a muslim world and a christian world, all believers in god, but beyond that, their faiths do more to separate them rather than to facilitate integration and mutual understanding; it is a strategy that binds us back into the hands of tribalism.  Better in principle, I would say, to teach children how to think rather than what to think although I accept this is easy to say but not so easy to do in a society riven with cultural values and pressures and it is not always easy to draw a clear demarcation line between helpful empowering parenting and controlling manipulative parenting.

I think you have to look at where tribalism has some benefits rather than write it off completely. It can be useful in protecting yourself from perceived threats and it is also useful in creating a feeling of identity, which gives people a feeling of security. I think lack of security and identity can lead to people seeking affirmation from their peers by engaging in destructive or negative behaviour. The trick is to achieve some kind of balance between identity and the security of the group and tolerating differences.

[wigginhall]

Even more amazing than Fibonacci is the fact that if you count upwards, every number is one higher than the one before!   At first,  I was skeptical this showed God's presence, but then someone pointed out to me, that in addition, every number is one less than the one after!   So, 4 is bigger than 3 by 1, but is smaller than 5 by 1.  Now come on, you skeptics, if that's not a demonstration of a spooky power, what is? 

Could I just add that I see the number 1 everywhere.   For example, I am having a cup of coffee, and there is one cup!   Now, again, if that doesn't demonstrate the oneness of God, I'm a bag of granulated sugar.

[ippy]

As you are aware "indoctrination" is the word used by certain atheists on this forum to describe parents teaching their children religious values. This teaching of subjective values to children is not always bad, nor is it a form of abuse.

No, I don't think I am contradicting myself - there is diversity in society if there are lots of different groups holding different group rituals and beliefs interacting together in society. There are different groups within company boards, political parties and other organisations but they interact together to pursue common goals and bring different ideas and approaches on how to achieve agreed upon shared goals.

I can see the case as you have put it in your posts and you are correct in the way you describe how a lot of things work but but these things you describe can and are equally as successful in their outcomes without atempting to embed superstition based ideas into the heads of our young.

I feel there's some small amount of merit to be gained by those that haven't atempted to place ideas only based on authority into the heads of our young and still bring up a well balanced next generation of good mixers.

As far as I know up until yesterday no one has produced any viable supporting evidence that proves any of the present bunch of religions contain any factual elements within their magical, mystical or superstional based departments.

I would be quite happy to be accused of indoctrinating my children to think for themselves and to plead guilty to that one too.

ippy

[torridon]

Even more amazing than Fibonacci is the fact that if you count upwards, every number is one higher than the one before!   At first,  I was skeptical this showed God's presence, but then someone pointed out to me, that in addition, every number is one less than the one after!   So, 4 is bigger than 3 by 1, but is smaller than 5 by 1.  Now come on, you skeptics, if that's not a demonstration of a spooky power, what is? 

Could I just add that I see the number 1 everywhere.   For example, I am having a cup of coffee, and there is one cup!   Now, again, if that doesn't demonstrate the oneness of God, I'm a bag of granulated sugar.

  

[ippy]

Even more amazing than Fibonacci is the fact that if you count upwards, every number is one higher than the one before!   At first,  I was skeptical this showed God's presence, but then someone pointed out to me, that in addition, every number is one less than the one after!   So, 4 is bigger than 3 by 1, but is smaller than 5 by 1.  Now come on, you skeptics, if that's not a demonstration of a spooky power, what is? 

Could I just add that I see the number 1 everywhere.   For example, I am having a cup of coffee, and there is one cup!   Now, again, if that doesn't demonstrate the oneness of God, I'm a bag of granulated sugar.

Deep!

ippy

[torridon]

I think you have to look at where tribalism has some benefits rather than write it off completely. It can be useful in protecting yourself from perceived threats and it is also useful in creating a feeling of identity, which gives people a feeling of security. I think lack of security and identity can lead to people seeking affirmation from their peers by engaging in destructive or negative behaviour. The trick is to achieve some kind of balance between identity and the security of the group and tolerating differences.

I've always been a bit of a non-joiner I suppose, never affiliating myself to faith groups or political parties; never joined a fan club or followed a football team, but I've never felt any ensuing temptation to go around smashing up bus shelters.  Maybe I'm just a weirdo.  I can see that joining in a socially conservative minded group will rein in wayward youngsters perhaps but on the other hand we live in a defacto period of globalisation, like it or not, and we need to be moving away from old tribal models of society towards seeing ourselves as global citizens; we need this underpinning to face challenges that are global in nature.

[Aruntraveller]

I've always been a bit of a non-joiner I suppose, never affiliating myself to faith groups or political parties; never joined a fan club or followed a football team, but I've never felt any ensuing temptation to go around smashing up bus shelters.  Maybe I'm just a weirdo.  I can see that joining in a socially conservative minded group will rein in wayward youngsters perhaps but on the other hand we live in a defacto period of globalisation, like it or not, and we need to be moving away from old tribal models of society towards seeing ourselves as global citizens; we need this underpinning to face challenges that are global in nature.

Totally wrong.

What do we want?

Little Britain.

When do we want it?

1935.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

As you are aware "indoctrination" is the word used by certain atheists on this forum to describe parents teaching their children religious values. This teaching of subjective values to children is not always bad, nor is it a form of abuse.

Not really. “Certain values” aren’t necessarily religious – they’re just values. The indoctrination bit concerns teaching as facts claims you cannot know to be facts.

I actually find your posts quote troubling, for three reasons:

First, values of decency, self-respect, honesty etc are fine and useful. I see no reason for them to be taught alongside claims of gods, souls, devils and the like though which is presumably why the jails aren’t disproportionately populated with atheists - just the opposite in fact. 

Second, you’re proposing the useful lie theory – “OK, I have no way to know whether or not this factual claim is true but the fact that I make it reinforces behaviours that are useful, therefore it’s ok”. Call me naďve, but I happen to think that truth has a value of its own - it’s less important perhaps when children grow out of thinking that if they behave well the tooth fairy will come, but if we privilege non-truths as adults that seems to me to open the door to any manner of harmful nonsense too. Are you not risking disarming your children against harmful claims in their futures by teaching them that woo has epistemic value over just guessing? 

Third, while I’m all for a sense of community, tribalism by contrast seems to me to be the root of a great deal of disharmony and conflict. The moment you think that your tribe alone has the correct keys to divine knowledge and reward then, by definition, the other tribes don’t – why then shouldn’t the tribe members who think themselves thus privileged behave accordingly? After all they know what god really wants don’t they?

Oh, and our four all seem to me to be thoroughly well-behaved, generous-minded and valuable members of society by the way. Where do you think we went wrong exactly as parents by not throwing god(s) into the mix?         

[john]

AB

I have a question for you.

Science has given us the ability to; land on other planets, Helps us to understand how life and the universe began, To target specific diseases using designer drugs, Etc.

What specific ability has religion given us? Does it tell us what god is or what heaven comprises, How prayer works? or indeed anything.

You guys need to come up with some demonstrable advantages for God just like science has.

[SusanDoris]

The one God concept is a religious belief -  it doesn't rely on repeatable, testable evidence that can be demonstrated objectively. it relies on whether the belief adds a useful element to a person's perspective and approach to the way they live their life, which is of course a subjective assessment made by the individual. A belief in one God doesn't take away any enjoyment in learning about evolution or the various discoveries about fossils and DNA or the best scientific explanation currently available based on those discoveries.

However, a belief in a one God perpetuates a human idea as being an existing reality despite the total lack of objective (etc etc) evidence.

[SusanDoris]

As you are aware "indoctrination" is the word used by certain atheists on this forum to describe parents teaching their children religious values.

See bluehillside's post above regarding values.
My two sons, plus my two granddaughters, plus their partners are lovely, sensible, moral people.  No God-believers amongst them!

[Sebastian Toe]

Even more amazing than Fibonacci is the fact that if you count upwards, every number is one higher than the one before!   At first,  I was skeptical this showed God's presence, but then someone pointed out to me, that in addition, every number is one less than the one after!   So, 4 is bigger than 3 by 1, but is smaller than 5 by 1.  Now come on, you skeptics, if that's not a demonstration of a spooky power, what is? 

Could I just add that I see the number 1 everywhere.   For example, I am having a cup of coffee, and there is one cup!   Now, again, if that doesn't demonstrate the oneness of God, I'm a bag of granulated sugar.

I seem to recall that I was once told that if you multiply any whole number greater than 0 by 2, the the result is always an even number. Always!
This amazing phenomenon even has a name I think it might be called the TTT or Two Times Table or something?
Try it for yourself. You might need to use a calculator for some of the tougher numbers (like 577 for example) but I don't think that you need one of those fancy schmancy expensive maths ones.

Amen.

[ippy]

I seem to recall that I was once told that if you multiply any whole number greater than 0 by 2, the the result is always an even number. Always!
This amazing phenomenon even has a name I think it might be called the TTT or Two Times Table or something?
Try it for yourself. You might need to use a calculator for some of the tougher numbers (like 577 for example) but I don't think that you need one of those fancy schmancy expensive maths ones.

Amen.

It's the intellectual stimulus one gains on a daily basis as just one more reason why I need to get involved with this Forum.

ippy

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I've always been a bit of a non-joiner I suppose, never affiliating myself to faith groups or political parties; never joined a fan club or followed a football team, but I've never felt any ensuing temptation to go around smashing up bus shelters.  Maybe I'm just a weirdo.  I can see that joining in a socially conservative minded group will rein in wayward youngsters perhaps but on the other hand we live in a defacto period of globalisation, like it or not, and we need to be moving away from old tribal models of society towards seeing ourselves as global citizens; we need this underpinning to face challenges that are global in nature.

Ideally everyone needs to be moving away from tribalism but there also needs to be an alternative effective strategy to dealing with the influence and pressure from other people's tribalism, whether cultural or religious or national, given that tribalism won't be eliminated overnight.

Maybe for evolutionary reasons some people have try to pressure others to conform. As one gets older it may be easier to resist those pressures because a sense of self is more strongly defined by responsibilities relating to work, helping others, family, communities etc and there is less time to care about someone else's opinion of you if they have little impact on your ability to pay your rent or mortgage or put food on the table or clothes on your back.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

Ideally everyone needs to be moving away from tribalism...

And yet you're sanguine about "indoctrinating" your children into a tribe. See my Reply to you a few posts back (21138) for this and various related issues.   

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

Not really. “Certain values” aren’t necessarily religious – they’re just values. The indoctrination bit concerns teaching as facts claims you cannot know to be facts.

I can't speak for how other religious people teach their children about religion. I can only speak for those religious people I have encountered that teach their children their beliefs - beliefs aren't facts. They are expressed as beliefs with an explanation of why we hold those beliefs. Some religious people may express their beliefs as facts - many children and adults tend to be smart enough to challenge unevidenced facts - but it probably does not stop the person who feels certain about their beliefs to continue to feel certain about them despite the challenges.

I actually find your posts quote troubling, for three reasons:

First, values of decency, self-respect, honesty etc are fine and useful. I see no reason for them to be taught alongside claims of gods, souls, devils and the like though which is presumably why the jails aren’t disproportionately populated with atheists - just the opposite in fact.

Ok but I do see a reason to teach gods, souls, devils and the like as stand alone concepts (rather than literally as there is no evidence with which to define gods, souls and devils). I find those useful concepts and tools for myself in adjusting my perspective and thinking.That we both have different views on what is useful to teach our respective children isn't a problem for me.   

Second, you’re proposing the useful lie theory – “OK, I have no way to know whether or not this factual claim is true but the fact that I make it reinforces behaviours that are useful, therefore it’s ok”. Call me naďve, but I happen to think that truth has a value of its own - it’s less important perhaps when children grow out of thinking that if they behave well the tooth fairy will come, but if we privilege non-truths as adults that seems to me to open the door to any manner of harmful nonsense too. Are you not risking disarming your children against harmful claims in their futures by teaching them that woo has epistemic value over just guessing?

No I don't think I am teaching my children a lie. I am teaching them a belief I can't evidence. Neither you nor I know the truth because there is no repeatable demonstrable objective methodology to establish the truth.

The kids know I have no evidence as to the truth - it's up to them if they want to reject the unevidenced belief. But if they want to share family activities with the extended family and feel like they are on our wavelength and included rather than feel lonely and not part of the family they would need to participate in the rituals and behaviours we all spend a lot of time engaging in - because we are not going to stop engaging in those activities and not spending enough time together doing shared activities could lead to emotional distance. It's up to the kids if they want to be a part of that closeness or drift away from their family. Currently they seem to value the comfort and security family brings so they have not drifted off but that may change and they may decide they no longer want to participate in family religious activities. Only they can weigh up the costs and benefits they perceive for themselves of being part of the family rituals or distancing themselves from them.

Third, while I’m all for a sense of community, tribalism by contrast seems to me to be the root of a great deal of disharmony and conflict. The moment you think that your tribe alone has the correct keys to divine knowledge and reward then, by definition, the other tribes don’t – why then shouldn’t the tribe members who think themselves thus privileged behave accordingly? After all they know what god really wants don’t they?

Maybe some tribes think that way. But the tribes that I am part of do not think they know what god really wants. They just make an attempt at what they think is required of them, they expect they will make mistakes, and they hope for the best.

Oh, and our four all seem to me to be thoroughly well-behaved, generous-minded and valuable members of society by the way. Where do you think we went wrong exactly as parents by not throwing god(s) into the mix?         

The way you raised your children isn't a problem for me . What made you think it was? As far as I can see I have not suggested that you went wrong. Why does it trouble you that other people raise their children in a different way from the way you raised yours?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

And yet you're sanguine about "indoctrinating" your children into a tribe. See my Reply to you a few posts back (21138) for this and various related issues.

I think people should move away from tribalism in the sense of strong loyalty to your tribe whereby you are intolerant of other tribes.

I don't think the fact that people form tribes with shared rituals and cultures is going to change no matter how global we become, so yes on a practical level, while they are my responsibility as my children I will "indoctrinate" them into a tribe to keep them out of other tribes they could be "indoctrinated" into that I think could harm them. 

[SusanDoris]

Gabriella

When you discuss your beliefs, practices, rituals, etc with your children, do you imply, directly or indirectly,  that those who do not have a religious  belief are lacking  in some way? Or, possibly, that they have less strength of character or purpose in life?

Edited - a g missing

[Shaker]

When you discuss your beliefs, practices, rituals, etc with your children, do you imply, directly or indirectly,  that those who do not have a religious  belief are lackin in some way? Or, possibly, that they have less strength of character or purpose in life?

Or are perhaps less moral?

http://tinyurl.com/yaoosphv