Searching for GOD...

[ippy]

You have just demonstrated your capacity to consciously choose to reply to my post.  You may further exercise your conscious ability in choosing what is the most likely definitive source of your conscious decision to reply.  Could it be your spiritual gift of free will, or just the inevitable result of all the pre determined physical reactions in your brain cells?  I admit I do not know how free will works, but I know it is not pre determined by nature, it is determined by my own conscious will.

In this post of yours you've demonstrated that you've intentionally ignored  wiggi's request, or that your light wasn't shining very brightly today, which one was it? I suppose it's your usual non-answer to that sort of question that you're well known for.

Don't forget the Secular Humanists love you and are here waiting for you.

Kind regards ippy 

[Sebastian Toe]

I would have thought you would recognise that my mention of "the spiritual gift of free will" implied that this gift can only come from God.  Removing God from the equation results in everything we do, think or say being driven entirely by the physically determined reactions of nature over which there can be no control.

Not necessarily so.
You may well have a gift of free will and a soul but it could have been gifted to you by something other than your god.
You are just not aware of it - yet.
You just need to have faith that the truth, the real truth, will get to you eventually.

[ekim]

I would have thought you would recognise that my mention of "the spiritual gift of free will" implied that this gift can only come from God.  Removing God from the equation results in everything we do, think or say being driven entirely by the physically determined reactions of nature over which there can be no control.

You may imply that but what you are no doing is demonstrating how you know that (a)this is a gift from your God, YHVH/Elohim, as opposed to any other God;  (b)that the ability to choose (intelligence) does not exist in its own right (as opposed to God given)as some aspects of Vedic philosophy suggest.  As regards your last sentence, it could also be said that by adding God to the equation everything we do, think, or say is determined by that God (Thy Will be done) and is not as free as you like to believe.

[Alan Burns]

You may imply that but what you are no doing is demonstrating how you know that (a)this is a gift from your God, YHVH/Elohim, as opposed to any other God;  (b)that the ability to choose (intelligence) does not exist in its own right (as opposed to God given)as some aspects of Vedic philosophy suggest.  As regards your last sentence, it could also be said that by adding God to the equation everything we do, think, or say is determined by that God (Thy Will be done) and is not as free as you like to believe.

No
God shares His gift of free will - He does not impose it
And you cannot equate freedom to choose with intelligence.  Computers can have built in intelligence, but all decisions are determined by pre programmed logic.
Can a computer tell a lie (by choosing to go against its programmed logic)?

[Walter]

John  10:18..................my ex had the same problem

[Sebastian Toe]

Can a computer tell a lie (by choosing to go against its programmed logic)?

Can you choose to not believe in God?
No?
Then you are no different to a programmed computer.

[Sebastian Toe]

No
God** shares His gift of free will - He does not impose it

**, Just to note that it might be someone or something else who is doing the sharing.

[Alan Burns]

Can you choose to not believe in God?
No?
Then you are no different to a programmed computer.

But I can choose to share my faith, to pray, to witness, to respond to your post.

[Sebastian Toe]

But I can choose to share my faith, to pray, to witness, to respond to your post.

Same program.

[floo]

But I can choose to share my faith, to pray, to witness, to respond to your post.

Just because the human consciousness allows us to make choices why do you assume that has anything to do with a god?

[ekim]

No, God shares His gift of free will - He does not impose it

You are still not demonstrating how you know that.  I would have thought that 'Thy Will be done on Earth' is a surrender to the imposition of your God's Will just as the crucifixion of Jesus was an imposition of God's Will.

And you cannot equate freedom to choose with intelligence.  Computers can have built in intelligence, but all decisions are determined by pre programmed logic. Can a computer tell a lie (by choosing to go against its programmed logic)?

I didn't equate 'freedom to choose' with 'intelligence', I said 'ability to choose'.  I would suggest that this ability can be programmed or conditioned to function in a repetitive way, just as your intelligence has been conditioned to function according to Christianity as opposed to Buddhism.  Whatever has motivated you to do so is what drives your 'will' or intention to act or not act.

[Shaker]

But I can choose to share my faith, to pray, to witness, to respond to your post.

Well no.

You can, and do, choose to bore on about it.

Share, no.

[ippy]

But I can choose to share my faith, to pray, to witness, to respond to your post.

We're not all indoctrinational fodder Alan.

ippy

[wigginhall]

Ironic that AB is one of the most robotic people on this forum, who churns out the same stuff again and again.   I suppose he has chosen to be a robot, or God has selected him  as most favoured robot.  We are honoured!

On another point, I thought that it was Christian doctrine that our will is corrupted, so that for example, 'no man is good'.  If this is correct, how can we ever know that we are thinking correctly?

"every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered."   Wiki. 

[floo]

I think AB is one of the good guys, it is just so sad he has been indoctrinated by the RCC!

[Walter]

I think AB is one of the good guys, it is just so sad he has been indoctrinated by the RCC!

Really, have you seen what goes on in the world where religious know alls are concerned ?

[Alan Burns]

Not necessarily so.
You may well have a gift of free will and a soul but it could have been gifted to you by something other than your god.
You are just not aware of it - yet.
You just need to have faith that the truth, the real truth, will get to you eventually.

Once they come to realise that they have a spiritual gift of free will which can't be derived from material sources, most people have a natural desire to discover the source of this gift, together with its reason and purpose.  This natural desire is evidenced in the vast number of religions which seek God.  There is only one God who has given us this gift, and I firmly believe He has made Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.  I need seek no further.

[Shaker]

 

[Walter]

Once they come to realise that they have a spiritual gift of free will which can't be derived from material sources, most people have a natural desire to discover the source of this gift, together with its reason and purpose.  This natural desire is evidenced in the vast number of religions which seek God.  There is only one God who has given us this gift, and I firmly believe He has made Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.  I need seek no further.

and on that you have my total disrespect.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Ironic that AB is one of the most robotic people on this forum, who churns out the same stuff again and again.   I suppose he has chosen to be a robot, or God has selected him  as most favoured robot.  We are honoured!

On another point, I thought that it was Christian doctrine that our will is corrupted, so that for example, 'no man is good'.  If this is correct, how can we ever know that we are thinking correctly?

"every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered."   Wiki.

Several varieties of Christian thought on depravity Wigginhall and some non Christian ideas on it so we go from everybody's a good bloke through the religiously evil and those nice atheists, pelagianism, semi pelagianism to what my old Dad, not noted for his Christianity. used to refer to the King Midas in reverse syndrome where everything humanity touches tends to turn to shit right through to Augustine and his total depravity(great sound ,got all their hits).

Mind you I'm a great fan of your historical point of view in all it's epic barminess.

[ippy]

Once they come to realise that they have a spiritual gift of free will which can't be derived from material sources, most people have a natural desire to discover the source of this gift, together with its reason and purpose.  This natural desire is evidenced in the vast number of religions which seek God.  There is only one God who has given us this gift, and I firmly believe He has made Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.  I need seek no further.

'There is only one God who has given us this gift', another one of your assertions Alan, how is it you can't see that just because you've asserted something, you seem to think it's a part of the real world, therefore it automatically becomes true, you've no evidence that would support that statement of yours, believing something and asserting are not the same why do you find so difficult to get your head around that, well, fact.

It doesn't matter how many people there are that think 2+ 2=5, they're still wrong, no matter the numbers.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

'There is only one God who has given us this gift', another one of your assertions Alan, how is it you can't see that just because you've asserted something, you seem to think it's a part of the real world, therefore it automatically becomes true, you've no evidence that would support that statement of yours, believing something and asserting are not the same why do you find so difficult to get your head around that, well, fact.

If I was a biological robot entirely controlled by nature I would not be able to assert anything, because the source of any assertion, by definition, must come from a conscious deliberate act which can't be defined by deterministic material reactions derived from endless chains of cause and effect.

[Enki]

If I was a biological robot entirely controlled by nature I would not be able to assert anything, because the source of any assertion, by definition, must come from a conscious deliberate act which can't be defined by deterministic material reactions derived from endless chains of cause and effect.

Assertion crash!

[floo]

If I was a biological robot entirely controlled by nature I would not be able to assert anything, because the source of any assertion, by definition, must come from a conscious deliberate act which can't be defined by deterministic material reactions derived from endless chains of cause and effect.

You cannot provide any evidence to support that assertion.

[Alan Burns]

You cannot provide any evidence to support that assertion.

The evidence is provided by scientific analysis of material properties and reactions to events, which indicate that any form of control or manipulation of events (within your brain cells) is not possible unless there is interaction from something acting outside the scientifically defined consequences of cause and effect within physical materials.