Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3865799 times)

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25400 on: January 01, 2018, 10:29:27 AM »
Morning Alan, and Happy New Year to you

Free will is not a mystery, it is wrong.

Calling it a mystery is just obfuscation and euphemism where there could be honesty and clarity.

It is not possible to make a meaningful choice on a basis that is free of relevant considerations; rather, a choice is a consequence of it's determinant factors otherwise it is not a choice at all, but merely a random, totally irrelevant, event.

There is no evidence for free will, in its full sense, and there never can be because it is an irrational concept.  It is the concept of choice itself that is deterministic; whatever the mechanism of choice, whatever the chooser, be it a robin or a rabbi, a conscious mind or an unconscious mind, a computer program or a spiritual soul, none of these possibilities will turn a choice into something that it isn't. 

We live in a deterministic universe; some find that idea abhorrent, at first, but really it is the only possible sort of conceivable universe - a non-deterministic universe would be an illogical universe, where nothing makes any sense.

Ideas like free will and souls and Gods persist not because there is any rational justification for them, not because of any evidence for them, they persist because they are ideas that have widespread appeal and so remain popular even today.  Popular does not mean true, it just means popular, and the result when challenged to justify irrational beliefs is a deluge of obfuscation, evasion and euphemism.  None of that stands comparison with just being straightforward and honest about things.
Happy New Year Torri

I do find it impossible to understand how you can claim there is no evidence for the existence of free will.  To me it is obvious that we live in a part of the universe in which there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of conscious manipulation to bring about consciously conceived goals.  This intended manipulation requires the freedom to interact rather than just react, and it is real and evidenced in all the human creativity in this world.  To assume that it all comes about through naturally occurring chains of physically deterministic events is optimism in the extreme.  The existence of human free will is not just a popular idea, it is backed up by overwhelming evidence which can't be ignored or explained away.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25401 on: January 01, 2018, 10:34:24 AM »
Happy New Year Torri

I do find it impossible to understand how you can claim there is no evidence for the existence of free will.  To me it is obvious that we live in a part of the universe in which there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of conscious manipulation to bring about consciously conceived goals.  This intended manipulation requires the freedom to interact rather than just react, and it is real and evidenced in all the human creativity in this world.  To assume that it all comes about through naturally occurring chains of physically deterministic events is optimism in the extreme.  The existence of human free will is not just a popular idea, it is backed up by overwhelming evidence which can't be ignored or explained away.

How can something that you have been unable to define in a logically coherent way have evidence to back it up given you have given no methodology to evaluate such 'evidence' despite being asked for such a methodology multiple times?


Given the above once again Alan you have started the New Year with a post that appears to indicate that you not only don't understand what is posted, but you don't appear to actually read it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 10:39:20 AM by Nearly Sane »

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25402 on: January 01, 2018, 10:51:42 AM »
Happy New Year Torri

I do find it impossible to understand how you can claim there is no evidence for the existence of free will.  To me it is obvious that we live in a part of the universe in which there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of conscious manipulation to bring about consciously conceived goals.  This intended manipulation requires the freedom to interact rather than just react, and it is real and evidenced in all the human creativity in this world.  To assume that it all comes about through naturally occurring chains of physically deterministic events is optimism in the extreme.  The existence of human free will is not just a popular idea, it is backed up by overwhelming evidence which can't be ignored or explained away.

What has optimism to do with anything in my post ?

Again, in the above response from you, you are merely deploying one of your favourite black boxes, 'consciousness', as if some magic happens there that can turn illogic into logic, and don't ask awkward questions.  Consciousness, remember, is an 'end-product' of preconscious processing.  It is not a primary fundamental force of nature, it is an emergent high order phenomenon of brain activity produced under hormonal control; it is not magic, it is not something that enables us to choose what to want or what to believe or what to feel or what to think on some undefinable basis.  All of these mind states are truly consequences of what has gone before.  If by some weird fluke humans had truly become unhinged from the paradigm of cause and effect we would have gone extinct in the blink of an evolutionary eye.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 10:54:27 AM by torridon »

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25403 on: January 01, 2018, 10:56:24 AM »
How can something that you have been unable to define in a logically coherent way have evidence to back it up given you have given no methodology to evaluate such 'evidence' despite being asked for such a methodology multiple times?


Given the above once again Alan you have started the New Year with a post that appears to indicate that you not only don't understand what is posted, but you don't appear to actually read it.
I am pointing out that there can be no physical explanation for the ability of human beings to interact in this world to bring about pre conceived goals.  Because if there is a physical explanation it ceases to be interaction and just becomes inevitable reaction - driven by natural forces which can have no intentional goal.

My reasoning therefore says that there must be a non physical explanation, but human methodology is not capable of fully understanding how the non physical works, so it must remain a mystery.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25404 on: January 01, 2018, 11:09:25 AM »
I am pointing out that there can be no physical explanation for the ability of human beings to interact in this world to bring about pre conceived goals.  Because if there is a physical explanation it ceases to be interaction and just becomes inevitable reaction - driven by natural forces which can have no intentional goal.

My reasoning therefore says that there must be a non physical explanation, but human methodology is not capable of fully understanding how the non physical works, so it must remain a mystery.

No, Alan: your 'reasoning' is that you need there to be 'God' and to support this need you've contrived a narrative that appeals to you, and that this narrative consists of a farrago of fallacies worries you not since if you were ever to recognise the flaws in your 'reasoning' then 'God' as you envisage it is rendered redundant.


torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25405 on: January 01, 2018, 11:16:08 AM »
I am pointing out that there can be no physical explanation for the ability of human beings to interact in this world to bring about pre conceived goals.  Because if there is a physical explanation it ceases to be interaction and just becomes inevitable reaction - driven by natural forces which can have no intentional goal.

My reasoning therefore says that there must be a non physical explanation, but human methodology is not capable of fully understanding how the non physical works, so it must remain a mystery.

Nothing magic about intentionality.  Intentions form as a consequence of something prior.  The intention of a wolf to bring down a bison arises as a direct consequence of its hunger, among other things.  Intentions do not form out of the blue, for no reason.  If they did, that would define them as random phenomena.

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25406 on: January 01, 2018, 11:31:05 AM »
I am pointing out that there can be no physical explanation for the ability of human beings to interact in this world to bring about pre conceived goals.  Because if there is a physical explanation it ceases to be interaction and just becomes inevitable reaction - driven by natural forces which can have no intentional goal.

My reasoning therefore says that there must be a non physical explanation, but human methodology is not capable of fully understanding how the non physical works, so it must remain a mystery.

Your reasoning, hmmmmmmmmmm!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25407 on: January 01, 2018, 11:44:58 AM »
I am pointing out that there can be no physical explanation for the ability of human beings to interact in this world to bring about pre conceived goals.  Because if there is a physical explanation it ceases to be interaction and just becomes inevitable reaction - driven by natural forces which can have no intentional goal.

My reasoning therefore says that there must be a non physical explanation, but human methodology is not capable of fully understanding how the non physical works, so it must remain a mystery.
. No, you are asserting something that is logically incoherent and gave no method to show evidence. Once again you show no indication of any real reading of posts.

ETA Just to note none of your above post address the actual questions I raised -at least have the courtesy to try and address the posts rather than look at a couple of words and trot out a non sequitur.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 12:01:01 PM by Nearly Sane »

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25408 on: January 01, 2018, 01:14:48 PM »
Alan uses a mash-up of various fallacies - composition, for example, also incredulity.   Atoms don't have intentions therefore the brain can't.   However, atoms aren't green or chocolatey, so does this mean that the brain cannot create the experience of green things or eating chocolate?

It's all backwards, in any case.   Alan starts with God, and then does a kind of reverse engineering.   "I want there to be a God, and so then he would be present  in intentionality, so then atoms can't do intentions.   Hey look, I got back to my starting place."  I remember discussing this stuff in the sixth form, and we found it naive then.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25409 on: January 01, 2018, 01:35:23 PM »
Alan uses a mash-up of various fallacies - composition, for example, also incredulity.   Atoms don't have intentions therefore the brain can't.   However, atoms aren't green or chocolatey, so does this mean that the brain cannot create the experience of green things or eating chocolate?

It's all backwards, in any case.   Alan starts with God, and then does a kind of reverse engineering.   "I want there to be a God, and so then he would be present  in intentionality, so then atoms can't do intentions.   Hey look, I got back to my starting place."  I remember discussing this stuff in the sixth form, and we found it naive then.

Your post sums up AB's 'reasoning' well.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25410 on: January 01, 2018, 01:46:45 PM »
Alan uses a mash-up of various fallacies - composition, for example, also incredulity.   Atoms don't have intentions therefore the brain can't.   However, atoms aren't green or chocolatey, so does this mean that the brain cannot create the experience of green things or eating chocolate?

It's all backwards, in any case.   Alan starts with God, and then does a kind of reverse engineering.   "I want there to be a God, and so then he would be present  in intentionality, so then atoms can't do intentions.   Hey look, I got back to my starting place."  I remember discussing this stuff in the sixth form, and we found it naive then.
But the concept of my entire existence and my awareness of my existence can't be explained in terms of molecular activity alone.   Atomic particles react, they do not perceive, and I am much more than the consequence of material reactions, because no matter how, when or why the material reacts, it remains material - just as it was before the reaction. 
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25411 on: January 01, 2018, 01:53:29 PM »
But the concept of my entire existence and my awareness of my existence can't be explained in terms of molecular activity alone.   Atomic particles react, they do not perceive, and I am much more than the consequence of material reactions, because no matter how, when or why the material reacts, it remains material - just as it was before the reaction.

In your opinion.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25412 on: January 01, 2018, 01:55:25 PM »
But the concept of my entire existence and my awareness of my existence can't be explained in terms of molecular activity alone.   Atomic particles react, they do not perceive, and I am much more than the consequence of material reactions, because no matter how, when or why the material reacts, it remains material - just as it was before the reaction.

You've had the fallacy of composition pointed out to you many times: most recently by Wiggs, yet you still fall flat-face into it (along with your usual dash of incredulity).

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25413 on: January 01, 2018, 02:18:49 PM »

It is evident that soul 'anything' (logic, location, creation etc)
can't be explained

By you, in any coherant, fallacy free, logical, non incredulous format, whatsoever.

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25414 on: January 01, 2018, 02:41:13 PM »
AB

Do you enjoy being so ignorant of how the human brain functions?
It seems you have not learnt a thing from all the first-class, intelligent, informed posts here ... ... probably because you haven't read them with any understanding at all.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 08:11:20 AM by SusanDoris »
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25415 on: January 01, 2018, 02:48:05 PM »
But the concept of my entire existence and my awareness of my existence can't be explained in terms of molecular activity alone.   Atomic particles react, they do not perceive, and I am much more than the consequence of material reactions, because no matter how, when or why the material reacts, it remains material - just as it was before the reaction.

Bloody hell, this is like trying to argue with a brick wall.   I can't believe that you have repeated 'atomic particles do not perceive', when I just pointed out that they don't see things either.   Does this mean that the brain cannot construct visual experience?   I'm just waiting for you to  move the goal-posts.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25416 on: January 01, 2018, 03:51:19 PM »
But the concept of my entire existence and my awareness of my existence can't be explained in terms of molecular activity alone.   Atomic particles react, they do not perceive, and I am much more than the consequence of material reactions, because no matter how, when or why the material reacts, it remains material - just as it was before the reaction.

You seem to use the word 'reaction' as a simple catch all word, when what you seem to be talking about is 'interaction', a word which is much more applicable to what happens to sub atomic particles, to atomic particles and indeed to molecules in all sorts of situations.

Quote
Atoms and molecules follow the rules of chemistry and physics, even when they're part of a complex, living, breathing being. If you learned in chemistry that some atoms tend to gain or lose electrons or form bonds with each other, those facts remain true even when the atoms or molecules are part of a living thing. In fact, simple interactions between atoms—played out many times and in many different combinations, in a single cell or a larger organism—are what make life possible. One could argue that everything you are, including your consciousness, is the byproduct of chemical and electrical interactions between a very, very large number of nonliving atoms!

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/chemistry--of-life/elements-and-atoms/a/matter-elements-atoms-article

The fact that you don't agree with this is neither here nor there. What you cannot say with any sense of vindication at all is that 'awareness of my existence can't be explained in terms of molecular activity alone.' because 1) there is no way you can establish that your view is the correct one 2)others who have studied and have expertise in the subject disagree with you. That doesn't mean to say that you are wrong, of course, But, what it does suggest is that your view is pure speculation.

Here are another couple of sites which use the word 'interaction', one with regard to the strong and weak nuclear forces, and the other is simply illustrating that the interaction of certain atoms can produce water molecules, and that these molecules can interact with other molecules to form other liquids. It also uses the word 'reaction' in its proper context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_interaction

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/science/chemistry/how-do-molecules-interact


At least, if you actually started to use the word 'interaction' in its proper setting, I might have a little more respect for your understanding of the whole subject.

So far you simply come over as someone who refuses to acknowledge any other view but your own, and that view is simply predicated on your absolute conviction in your faith. It seems to lead to your propensity for simply ignoring questions put to you if you find them too difficult to answer and blithely repeating the same assertions, seemingly ad infintum. What this seems to create is a sense of exasperation in many of the replies because you are not willing or able to engage in debate. I, for one, would wish that you might produce actual arguments/evidence which would support your point of view.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25417 on: January 01, 2018, 03:58:26 PM »
If I was being uncharitable, I would say that Alan is trolling us, with his endless repeated mantras.   However, I am willing to accept that he is not malicious.   Actually, this is even more horrifying, as it suggests that he simply cannot process arguments from other people. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25418 on: January 01, 2018, 04:17:31 PM »
If I was being uncharitable, I would say that Alan is trolling us, with his endless repeated mantras.   However, I am willing to accept that he is not malicious.   Actually, this is even more horrifying, as it suggests that he simply cannot process arguments from other people.

I don't believe AB is a troll, I think he genuinely believes what he is stating is true.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25419 on: January 01, 2018, 04:20:32 PM »
If I was being uncharitable, I would say that Alan is trolling us,

As he has stated, he is proselytising.

However I guess that is not going as he hopes and I believe that would be down to...
his endless repeated mantras.   
....being used as 'arguements'!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25420 on: January 01, 2018, 04:31:34 PM »
It's very like arguing with a creationist, or rather, not arguing.   I mean, they just keep saying the same things, as to why evolution cannot be true, and rational argument does not work with them.   I don't really get it, I suppose it's a closed mind.   I don't think that all theists are like this, I remember father patrick on the BBC who would actually engage intelligently.   
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25421 on: January 01, 2018, 04:44:08 PM »
Alan's continued use of the fallacy of composition is rather like someone insisting that water can never be liquid at room temperature because neither hydrogen nor oxygen can be liquid at room temperature - his 'atoms can't perceive' nonsense is in a similar vein, and is just as daft.   

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25422 on: January 01, 2018, 05:05:48 PM »
It's very like arguing with a creationist, or rather, not arguing.   I mean, they just keep saying the same things, as to why evolution cannot be true, and rational argument does not work with them.   I don't really get it, I suppose it's a closed mind.   I don't think that all theists are like this, I remember father patrick on the BBC who would actually engage intelligently.   

Agreed.

I am minded of this famous debate between Bertrand Russell and F C Copleston on the BBC on the existence of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXPdpEJk78E

Transcript available here.

http://www.scandalon.co.uk/philosophy/cosmological_radio.htm

which you have probably encountered before. However it comes across as a constructive and civilised debate, where both sides had something useful to contribute... and ended with the famous words by Russell:

'Yes, it is very difficult. What do you say, shall we pass on to some other issue?' to which Copleston agreed.

Alan might just learn something of how to take part in a debate from this, which might include putting forward your own arguments, listening and responding to the arguments of others and then accepting that an impasse has been reached, and be willing to go onto other subjects.

Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25423 on: January 01, 2018, 05:14:28 PM »
Part of the issue seems to be a need to translate feelings to evidence, mystery to proof, gaps to facts. There is a desperate scramble for the words of rational discourse to be used like a fig leaf on their personal experiences to claim respectability. Alan's claims of evidence for a thing he can't describe coherently with no methodology are evidence of his huge throbbing desire for his god to be true, and nothing more.

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25424 on: January 01, 2018, 05:30:39 PM »
Very good, NS.   There seem to be two languages going on, the language of personal experience, and then the language of reasoned argument, evidence, and so on.    Normally, they are separate from each other, but people try to bring them together, and it tends not to work.   It's like trying to prove that you're in love. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!