Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

And would you deny that I have the freedom to wilfully obfuscate?

You seem to use 'freedom' here as an alternative 'think': and nobody denies you have the ability to think, even if at times you don't do it all that well.

[ekim]

But Alan agrues that we can freely make choices such as to believe in God. He has said our choices are not predetermined.

Well I can only guess at what he is saying.  So from the Biblical perspective, only God is not predetermined, all else results from God's Will and is therefore predetermined.  Within man is 'spirit' which is divine in nature and man's essential being.  Being divine it is also not predetermined and is able to act or not act free from attachments as the God does.  Alan calls it 'God given soul'.

[torridon]

And would you deny that I have the freedom to wilfully obfuscate?

You have that freedom, yes, in the everyday superficial sense, of feeling free because we are not conscious of the constraints on said freedom.

But in the deeper sense which you ought by now to be understanding, No, you don't have that freedom, as a choice that is free of its determinants is incoherent meaningless noise.  What freedom is there if we cannot choose what to want ?

[Maeght]

Well I can only guess at what he is saying.  So from the Biblical perspective, only God is not predetermined, all else results from God's Will and is therefore predetermined.  Within man is 'spirit' which is divine in nature and man's essential being.  Being divine it is also not predetermined and is able to act or not act free from attachments as the God does.  Alan calls it 'God given soul'.

Well, you can read what he's saying rather than guess, and yes he  is arguing that humans have freewill, given to them by God, because he has given humans a soul which is free from predetermination. The question is how does the soul make a decision, is it based on previous events so predetermined, random or something else?  The question is clear but never gets answered.

[Alan Burns]

You have that freedom, yes, in the everyday superficial sense, of feeling free because we are not conscious of the constraints on said freedom.

But in the deeper sense which you ought by now to be understanding, No, you don't have that freedom, as a choice that is free of its determinants is incoherent meaningless noise.  What freedom is there if we cannot choose what to want ?

We have the freedom to choose, to think, to act, to speak, to create, to discover, to imagine, to dream, to speculate, to lie, to deceive, to love, to ..... I could go on .  I rejoice in my God given freedom, and feel very sad that some do not fully realise just what this precious gift is.  The only alternative is a total denial of freedom - to presume that everything we do, think, or say is entirely pre determined by the physically determined reactions to events in our brain over which we can have no control because they will be defined by the uncontrollable laws of nature

[Sriram]

 

Life could be like a VR computer game. Everything is predetermined, such as the different levels, obstacles, rewards and so on...and yet we can win or lose.

Science and technology and our creations could be pointing us towards what we are and how we have been created.  Patterns repeat at different levels.

[Gordon]

We have the freedom to choose, to think, to act, to speak, to create, to discover, to imagine, to dream, to speculate, to lie, to deceive, to love, to ..... I could go on .

Have you considered that is just what it feels like to be human?

I rejoice in my God given freedom, and feel very sad that some do not fully realise just what this precious gift is.

You haven't established that this 'gift' of yours is anything other than just how you feel on a personal basis: I don't have a comparable feeling.

The only alternative is a total denial of freedom - to presume that everything we do, think, or say is entirely pre determined by the physically determined reactions to events in our brain over which we can have no control because they will be defined by the uncontrollable laws of nature.

That we think we are making choices is sufficient to get us through the night.

[torridon]

We have the freedom to choose, to think, to act, to speak, to create, to discover, to imagine, to dream, to speculate, to lie, to deceive, to love, to ..... I could go on .  I rejoice in my God given freedom, and feel very sad that some do not fully realise just what this precious gift is.  The only alternative is a total denial of freedom - to presume that everything we do, think, or say is entirely pre determined by the physically determined reactions to events in our brain over which we can have no control because they will be defined by the uncontrollable laws of nature

Of course we all feel that sense of freedom, so much, so obvious.  Some of us like to delve a little deeper though, and try to understand our human condition, and in the course of that, simplistic notions of freedom have to go as they become meaningless eventually.  Far more profound than mere feelings are the principles of cause and effect and the arrow of time, and our feelings of freedom still arise despite being subject to the arrow of time.  All the evidence suggests that humans, like everything else are subject to and product of such principles.  If I end up choosing a tea rather than a coffee, and enjoying the sense of freedom to so do, it will be because I wanted the tea in that moment more than the coffee, and I was merely acting on my de facto preference, not choosing it. We cannot choose what to want, what to prefer, what to believe,  because all these suggestions are meaningless, and you yourself have been unable to suggest any basis on which we could choose what to want other than by wanting to want it.  Bottom line : things happen for a reason and that includes choices made by brains, and it is good that it is so; the alternative would be inconceivable madness.

[ekim]

Well, you can read what he's saying rather than guess, and yes he  is arguing that humans have freewill, given to them by God, because he has given humans a soul which is free from predetermination. The question is how does the soul make a decision, is it based on previous events so predetermined, random or something else?  The question is clear but never gets answered.

I can make a suggestion as to the answer.  It depends upon the condition of the 'soul'.  If the soul is full of attachments to human desires and fears then its decisions will be based upon or influenced by them.  If the soul is 'pure of heart', i.e. free from those attachments, then decisions are determined by the God.  As the God is said to be omnipresent, then there is no 'arrow of time' and no 'pre'determination.  All is determined (God's Will) in the 'present moment' by that God through the 'soul' provided that it is pure, otherwise the determination becomes 'self' willed.  If Alan is attached to his religion, for example, then he is not free and his soul is not pure and his decisions will be determined by the doctrine of that religion.  Attachments could be seen as sins as they cause deviation from the Will of that God or the Way to Heaven.

[ippy]

We have the freedom to choose, to think, to act, to speak, to create, to discover, to imagine, to dream, to speculate, to lie, to deceive, to love, to ..... I could go on .  I rejoice in my God given freedom, and feel very sad that some do not fully realise just what this precious gift is.  The only alternative is a total denial of freedom - to presume that everything we do, think, or say is entirely pre determined by the physically determined reactions to events in our brain over which we can have no control because they will be defined by the uncontrollable laws of nature

You've never managed to supply anything that would demonstrate that there is any logical/rational reason to rejoice the things you say you do in this 25579 post of yours Alan, doesn't this inability of yours to be able to substantiate these, at present only ideas of yours, ring any bells inside your thoughts? Bit worrying for you if it doesn't? That's assuming you do have some logical/rational thoughts, about this particular subject, that is?

Necessarily the very kindest of regards to you more than most, ippy

[Nearly Sane]

I can make a suggestion as to the answer.  It depends upon the condition of the 'soul'.  If the soul is full of attachments to human desires and fears then its decisions will be based upon or influenced by them.  If the soul is 'pure of heart', i.e. free from those attachments, then decisions are determined by the God.  As the God is said to be omnipresent, then there is no 'arrow of time' and no 'pre'determination.  All is determined (God's Will) in the 'present moment' by that God through the 'soul' provided that it is pure, otherwise the determination becomes 'self' willed.  If Alan is attached to his religion, for example, then he is not free and his soul is not pure and his decisions will be determined by the doctrine of that religion.  Attachments could be seen as sins as they cause deviation from the Will of that God or the Way to Heaven.

Not sure what you are trying to achieve with this post. You seem tone telling Maeght not to engage with what Alan says he believes because it's not consistent with your view of what Alan should be saying he believes. Surely it would be much better for you to address that directly to Alan rather using Maeght as a go between? Seems to me to be hugely patronising to Alan to indirectly use a reply to Maeght to point this out.

[Nearly Sane]

We have the freedom to choose, to think, to act, to speak, to create, to discover, to imagine, to dream, to speculate, to lie, to deceive, to love, to ..... I could go on . 

And in doing so it would just show once again your complete lack of understanding of what has been said. All actions derive from you wanting that. Ifypu argue that you chose your wants you then,leaving aside your inability to state what that means in a logical coherent fashion, create an infinite regress as the choice would've a want which would have to be chosen which would be a want which.....

 ' I rejoice in my God given freedom, and feel very sad that some do not fully realise just what this precious gift is.'

Since you have already stated that you have no understanding of it, and since this is yet more of your egregious question begging, your sentence is more of the white noise that you produce so readily.

 The only alternative is a total denial of freedom - to presume that everything we do, think, or say is entirely pre determined by the physically determined reactions to events in our brain over which we can have no control because they will be defined by the uncontrollable laws of nature

.  An and a big hello to your use of the ad consequential fallacy. That you don't like a conclusion is entirely worthless as an argument. And of course we have your irrelevant insertion of the word physically just to underline quite how much you miss the logic of how things might happen

[Alan Burns]

Have you considered that is just what it feels like to be human?

You haven't established that this 'gift' of yours is anything other than just how you feel on a personal basis: I don't have a comparable feeling.

That we think we are making choices is sufficient to get us through the night.

But it is not just a feeling.
My freedom to choose can easily be verified by my capability of imagining what I can do - then consciously choosing whether I want to do it, when I want to do it and how I want to do it.  Do you seriously believe that all we can ever imagine and do is entirely pre determined?
Our freedom is a reality, it is not difficult to comprehend.

[ippy]

And in doing so it would just show once again your complete lack of understanding of what has been said. All actions derive from you wanting that. Ifypu argue that you chose your wants you then,leaving aside your inability to state what that means in a logical coherent fashion, create an infinite regress as the choice would've a want which would have to be chosen which would be a want which.....



 Since you have already stated that you have no understanding of it, and since this is yet more of your egregious question begging, your sentence is more of the white noise that you produce so readily.
.  An and a big hello to your use of the ad consequential fallacy. That you don't like a conclusion is entirely worthless as an argument. And of course we have your irrelevant insertion of the word physically just to underline quite how much you miss the logic of how things might happen

Now you're making sense here N S.

Regards ippy

[Alan Burns]

Bottom line : things happen for a reason and that includes choices made by brains, and it is good that it is so; the alternative would be inconceivable madness.

I have never disputed that things happen for a reason.  My contention is where and how the reason originates.  The conscious will of the human soul is a reason, not an uncontrollable reaction.

[ippy]

But it is not just a feeling.
My freedom to choose can easily be verified by my capability of imagining what I can do - then consciously choosing whether I want to do it, when I want to do it and how I want to do it.  Do you seriously believe that all we can ever imagine and do is entirely pre determined?
Our freedom is a reality, it is not difficult to comprehend.

Yes I'm sure you're right, but why do you have this pointless need to make references to whatever this god thingy/idea when you're writing about unrelated subjects like this one? I note no god reference in this one, unusual for you Alan, perhaps a chink of light shining through?

Necessarily the very kindest of regards to you Alan, ippy

[Nearly Sane]

I have never disputed that things happen for a reason.  My contention is where and how the reason originates.  The conscious will of the human soul is a reason, not an uncontrollable reaction.

Yoh do realise that you have just agreed with determinism here? Since that reason is then determined because the will is chosen for a reason is therefore deterministic.

[floo]

But it is not just a feeling.
My freedom to choose can easily be verified by my capability of imagining what I can do - then consciously choosing whether I want to do it, when I want to do it and how I want to do it.  Do you seriously believe that all we can ever imagine and do is entirely pre determined?
Our freedom is a reality, it is not difficult to comprehend.

No one can know for certain if we are free to make our own choices, however much we might wish it to be so, or if it is all pre-determined.

[Alan Burns]

That you don't like a conclusion is entirely worthless as an argument. And of course we have your irrelevant insertion of the word physically just to underline quite how much you miss the logic of how things might happen

It is not that I do not like the conclusion.  I am making the statement that the conclusion is obviously wrong, because I have verifiable consciously driven control of what I do, think and say.

And I am sorry that you can't perceive the difference between physically determined and spiritually determined.

[Sriram]

 Bottom line : things happen for a reason and that includes choices made by brains, and it is good that it is so; the alternative would be inconceivable madness.

That's an amazing admission on your part.   This is what religious people also say...except that you differ on the source of the reason. You are attributing it to the physical brain...which is  ....while religious people attribute it to something beyond the physical brain...something like the Unconscious Mind...and perhaps beyond.

[Alan Burns]

Yes I'm sure you're right, but why do you have this pointless need to make references to whatever this god thingy/idea when you're writing about unrelated subjects like this one? I note no god reference in this one, unusual for you Alan, perhaps a chink of light shining through?

Necessarily the very kindest of regards to you Alan, ippy

The implication is that our freedom can't be derived purely from the deterministically driven events in the physical material of our brain.  Our freedom must come from a source which is not constrained by the uncontrollable forces of nature, so our freedom is verifiable evidence of our spiritual, God given nature.

[Nearly Sane]

It is not that I do not like the conclusion.  I am making the statement that the conclusion is obviously wrong, because I have verifiable consciously driven control of what I do, think and say.

And I am sorry that you can't perceive the difference between physically determined and spiritually determined.

How do you verify it, Alan? You have been asked many times for this methodology but have failed to provide it. Your continued evasion on that illustrates a further lack of understanding of the point and means you resort to assertions that would lead to doubting your honesty, were it not obvious that you have no grasp of the issue.


As to the difference between physical and spiritual determined, leaving aside yet another example of you begging  the question (which further shows you have almost no ability to make a logically coherent argument), you have again continually been unable to define spiritual in any coherent way.


Your posts are empty repetitions filled with logically incoherence, fallacies and indicative of a complete lack of understanding about the arguments. 

[ippy]

That's an amazing admission on your part.   This is what religious people also say...except that you differ on the source of the reason. You are attributing it to the physical brain...which is  ....while religious people attribute it to something beyond the physical brain...something like the Unconscious Mind...and perhaps beyond.

and perhaps beyond, and perhaps not.

Regards ippy

[Sriram]

and perhaps beyond, and perhaps not.

Regards ippy

Perhaps!! 

We have seen in the past that the world turns out to be only much more complex than we thought...never less.

[torridon]

That's an amazing admission on your part.   This is what religious people also say...except that you differ on the source of the reason. You are attributing it to the physical brain...which is  ....while religious people attribute it to something beyond the physical brain...something like the Unconscious Mind...and perhaps beyond.

I didn't intend any teleology by "things happen for a reason".  Just a principle of logic that there are always consequences, nothing and nobody is an island, everything is connected, the arrow of time goes forward only.  This is at the heart of the illusion of free will; the idea that the present moment can be free of the consequences of the past is profoundly irrational.  The present moment is an inevitable outcome of the past and that is true for mind states, like wanting a tea more than a coffee on a Tuesday afternoon in Luton.