Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

  or evidence or logic, it would seem.

And any amount of logical analysis and consideration of evidence would require me to be in control of my brain functions, therefore proving beyond any doubt that I am in control.

[Nearly Sane]

And any amount of logical analysis and consideration of evidence would require me to be in control of my brain functions, therefore proving beyond any doubt that I am in control.

You haven't even be been able to define control here with any logical coherency so your sentence isn't even wrong. It's just more white noise showing you don't understand the issue.

[wigginhall]

Alan says that he knows he is in control of his brain functions.   OK, I know that I am not.   Now what?

[Alan Burns]

You haven't even be been able to define control here with any logical coherency so your sentence isn't even wrong. It's just more white noise showing you don't understand the issue.

Control is simply my ability to consciously interact with this world.

[Nearly Sane]

Control is simply my ability to consciously interact with this world.

Which you have stated is something that cannot be understood, making the entirety of your claim meaningless.

[Alan Burns]

Alan says that he knows he is in control of his brain functions.   OK, I know that I am not.   Now what?

I would suggest you seek help with this, but if you really have no control you would not be able to seek help!

[wigginhall]

I would suggest you seek help with this, but if you really have no control you would not be able to seek help!

You're missing the point.   You make these assertions, based on personal experience, but someone else can make a different assertion, based on their experience.    This does't go anywhere, I think.

[Nearly Sane]

Alan says that he knows he is in control of his brain functions.   OK, I know that I am not.   Now what?

I don't even know what he means. As torridon and Gordon have already coveted, what I think of as brain and me seem inseparable. What would I be controlling?

[Alan Burns]

Which you have stated is something that cannot be understood, making the entirety of your claim meaningless.

Although I do not understand how conscious awareness and conscious interaction work, I know what they do.  I am demonstrating it with this post, so you can't assume my claim is meaningless.

[torridon]

But your conclusion that our conscious perception is just an end product over which there is no control makes absolutely no sense to me, because I know that I am in control, and no amount of technical jargon can alter this.

I refer you to #25679, as well as previous post.  Direct 'knowing' is no such thing. It is a concoction of mind assembled out of precursor mind states at minimal cost and speed. We are not (normally) aware of precursor mind states because awareness itself is an outcome of those prior states.  Only very rarely do we glimpse the truth of this, for instance, when we have a moment of deja vu; this happens when a preliminary draft of our eventual awareness persists into the final cut of conscious experience.  This is not some 'technical jargon' contrived to confuse people.  This is simply what we have learned through study, it is up to us to come to terms with it and thereby develop better understanding.

[Alan Burns]

I don't even know what he means. As torridon and Gordon have already coveted, what I think of as brain and me seem inseparable. What would I be controlling?

A biological machine.

[Nearly Sane]

Although I do not understand how conscious awareness and conscious interaction work, I know what they do.  I am demonstrating it with this post, so you can't assume my claim is meaningless.

I'm not assuming your claim is meaningless, I'm pointing out that you not only state that you don't know how they work but that you have no understanding of what they are.

[torridon]

A biological machine.

Isn't that what brains are for ?

[Nearly Sane]

A biological machine.

But I appear to think with my brain and without it there appears to be no thinking so you are positing that I control my thinking by something other than what appears to do the thinking. Remove my brain and to me I cease.

[ippy]

I would suggest you seek help with this, but if you really have no control you would not be able to seek help!

What if this god idea of yours does exist and it's, whatever it is, is letting you think you're in charge when in fact it's still controlling you, how do you know the god idea isn't controlling you and just letting you think you've got free will, what if______________?

Without evidence, what if?

You can make up anything you like and seems to me you overenthusiasticly enjoy taking up any of the old stories about the various parts of religious belief that you've been taught and none of these ideas I've seen you expound here on the forum have been or form any part of an original thought on your part, doesn't this apparent following along with the crowd tendency of yours ring any bells? Muted even?

By the way Alan, I 'd be interested to know why you apparently seem to think powerfully presented authoritative assertions amount to evidence? You're not stupid Alan, but your assertions do come over as I have described above, why?

With all the necessarily kindest of regards to you Alan, ippy

[Maeght]

I would suggest you seek help with this, but if you really have no control you would not be able to seek help!

Of course you would. I think this sort of comment just reflects your simplistic view of what people mean when they say our apparent choices are not free but are predetermined by previous events.

[Alan Burns]

But I appear to think with my brain and without it there appears to be no thinking so you are positing that I control my thinking by something other than what appears to do the thinking. Remove my brain and to me I cease.

But what drives your thought processes?

[Alan Burns]

I refer you to #25679, as well as previous post.  Direct 'knowing' is no such thing. It is a concoction of mind assembled out of precursor mind states at minimal cost and speed. We are not (normally) aware of precursor mind states because awareness itself is an outcome of those prior states.  Only very rarely do we glimpse the truth of this, for instance, when we have a moment of deja vu; this happens when a preliminary draft of our eventual awareness persists into the final cut of conscious experience.  This is not some 'technical jargon' contrived to confuse people.  This is simply what we have learned through study, it is up to us to come to terms with it and thereby develop better understanding.

But you still do not define what you mean by the word "mind".  What is it that perceives?  What is it that has to develop a better understanding?

[Nearly Sane]

But what drives your thought processes?

Driving your thought processes surely requires something you would define as thought? Again, Akan this shows that you have no coherent way to talk of this since if something is to drive my thought processes and that requires thought then that would require a driving of the driving of the thought processes - and so on. You are back at creating an infinite regress.

[Alan Burns]

You're missing the point.   You make these assertions, based on personal experience, but someone else can make a different assertion, based on their experience.    This does't go anywhere, I think.

Our abilities to make assertions (whether they are deemed to be right or wrong) are clear evidence that we are in control of what we say or post.

[Alan Burns]

Driving your thought processes surely requires something you would define as thought? Again, Akan this shows that you have no coherent way to talk of this since if something is to drive my thought processes and that requires thought then that would require a driving of the driving of the thought processes - and so on. You are back at creating an infinite regress.

I have the conscious willpower to control my thought processes.  It comes from the free will of the human soul.  There is no infinite regress.

[Nearly Sane]

I have the conscious willpower to control my thought processes.  It comes from the free will of the human soul.  There is no infinite regress.

Another post where you show your lack of understanding! How is will not thought? To have an intention is thought. You have just repeated your infinite regress position with different words.

[Alan Burns]

What if this god idea of yours does exist and it's, whatever it is, is letting you think you're in charge when in fact it's still controlling you, how do you know the god idea isn't controlling you and just letting you think you've got free will, what if______________?

Without evidence, what if?

You can make up anything you like and seems to me you overenthusiasticly enjoy taking up any of the old stories about the various parts of religious belief that you've been taught and none of these ideas I've seen you expound here on the forum have been or form any part of an original thought on your part, doesn't this apparent following along with the crowd tendency of yours ring any bells? Muted even?

By the way Alan, I 'd be interested to know why you apparently seem to think powerfully presented authoritative assertions amount to evidence? You're not stupid Alan, but your assertions do come over as I have described above, why?

With all the necessarily kindest of regards to you Alan, ippy

I think for myself, Ippy, using the gift of free will which God has given me.  I back up my so called assertions with the fact that there is no possible material explanation for our conscious awareness and conscious interaction, so I look to God's revelations to seek the truth.

[Nearly Sane]

I think for myself, Ippy, using the gift of free will which God has given me.  I back up my so called assertions with the fact that there is no possible material explanation for our conscious awareness and conscious interaction, so I look to God's revelations to seek the truth.

That is not a fact. You really should stop using fact in that way because it makes you look very dishonest.

[torridon]

I have the conscious willpower to control my thought processes.  It comes from the free will of the human soul.  There is no infinite regress.

Dreams are a form of thought.

Can you control your dreams too ?