Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3876264 times)

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28225 on: April 21, 2018, 10:15:36 PM »
Just come across a critic of Dr Ramachanderon's ideas about consciousness from Raymond Tallis:

"The trouble begins when the neurologist turns philosopher and tries to use these insights to get closer to "what makes us human." He suggests that such cross-wiring underpins both humans' ability to enjoy metaphors and artists' capacity to create novel connections—an assertion that has scarcely any research to back it up. (What little has been done depends on laughably simplistic models of how metaphors and creativity really work.) Likewise, his explanation of how we became speaking animals has scarcely a toe-hold on empirical data."

In essence, any attempt to explain human conscious awareness in terms of the reactions in material particles is doomed to failure, because there can be no material explanation for human conscious awareness.

But of course by simply using your imagination, all of the enquiry that others make can easily be dismissed, so sorry Alan, how silly of me not to have allowed for the power of imagination, your imagination.

I suppose you're so used to being asserted at with a strong form of authority from, I suppose mostly a pulpit, then you seem to think we're all going to accept authoritative assertions from you as though you're issuing facts, why do you keep on doing this, it's not as though you're stupid, I wonder? You must know that all you're doing is asserting and you have never provided anything viable that would support your rather outrageous assertions, you must even be lying to yourself.

So sorry you haven't gone through more of Dr Ram's works, perhaps one day the penny'll drop, Alan, regards ippy. 

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28226 on: April 21, 2018, 10:27:24 PM »
Memory in a human brain is presumably defined by the physical state of lots of brain cells.  The memory we experience has to perceive the content of these brain cells, not just react to them as happens inside a computer.   And this entity of perception is ....?

This makes no sense.  My memories are stored in my hippocampus, among other places.  I don't remember things by looking at my hippocampus to see what is stored there and somehow reconstructing visceral memories from the mass of grey and white matter there.  I remember things because I am a hippocampus, among other things. Do I imagine that when the swallows return to their nest in my barn after spending the winter in South Africa, they must needs have a swallow soul to inspect the contents of their avian hippocampus to find their way back ?  I don't think so; nature is already wonderful enough; adding a layer of magic adds nothing of explanatory value and only trivialises the complexity of how things actually work.   

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28227 on: April 21, 2018, 10:31:36 PM »
I do not see how the continuity we experience as individuals has any relation to replication or reproduction.

How could memories persist over time without faithful replication of memory cells ?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28228 on: April 21, 2018, 10:40:54 PM »
Just going back to the example of Trigger's broom, the only thing which gives continuity to the constantly changing broom is Trigger himself, as the owner/user of the broom.  And the obvious thing which can give continuity to our human body machine is its owner/user - the human soul.

Well in your narrative no doubt, but back in the real world where reasonable people expect some degree of evidence and justification for their ideas, that is a non starter. Even if there were any evidence for souls, they are still a poorer explanation for the persistence of memories over time, as clearly we do change over time, slowly perhaps, but incessantly.  As my body changes, so do I.  This would not be the case with souls; in that case there would be no change.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28229 on: April 21, 2018, 10:54:02 PM »
Just out of interest Alan - how do 'souls' operate in the very young, such as my younger grand-daughter who will be 2 in June?

She's now talking, and is quite inquisitive at times too when something attracts her attention and she decides to investigate, so what would indicate to me that something 'spiritual' is going on that involves more than just her clearly developing biological abilities? For example; when she chooses certain of her toys over others. 

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28230 on: April 22, 2018, 12:12:41 AM »
Just out of interest Alan - how do 'souls' operate in the very young, such as my younger grand-daughter who will be 2 in June?

She's now talking, and is quite inquisitive at times too when something attracts her attention and she decides to investigate, so what would indicate to me that something 'spiritual' is going on that involves more than just her clearly developing biological abilities? For example; when she chooses certain of her toys over others.

Not exactly relevant but I did once have a conversation with an Evangelical over the cut-off point at which the children of non-believers would stop being excused for their own non belief, and therefore would go to hell should they die.

She said that it was six. Slightly alarmingly, she was a vicar’s wife. 

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28231 on: April 22, 2018, 09:39:09 AM »
Just out of interest Alan - how do 'souls' operate in the very young, such as my younger grand-daughter who will be 2 in June?

She's now talking, and is quite inquisitive at times too when something attracts her attention and she decides to investigate, so what would indicate to me that something 'spiritual' is going on that involves more than just her clearly developing biological abilities? For example; when she chooses certain of her toys over others.
A possible answer is that your grand-daughter is closer to being 'pure of soul' than you are and that as her attention i.e. the direction of her consciousness becomes more and more attracted to the worldly so that purity becomes diminished.  Something anti spiritual is going on and as Jesus is alleged to have said in L18/17:   Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child will not be able to enter therein.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28232 on: April 22, 2018, 09:57:49 AM »
A possible answer is that your grand-daughter is closer to being 'pure of soul' than you are and that as her attention i.e. the direction of her consciousness becomes more and more attracted to the worldly so that purity becomes diminished.  Something anti spiritual is going on and as Jesus is alleged to have said in L18/17:   Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child will not be able to enter therein.

In that case there is no point in converting when you are an adult!

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28233 on: April 22, 2018, 10:03:37 AM »
In that case there is no point in converting when you are an adult!
Converting to what?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28234 on: April 22, 2018, 10:06:57 AM »
Converting to what?

To Christianity.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28235 on: April 22, 2018, 10:32:27 AM »
To Christianity.
I doubt whether conversion would do any good.  In the context of the question, what would be needed is a teacher who could demonstrate how to 'receive the Kingdom of God as a little child'.  The idea is not unique to Christian scripture: Sri Ramakrishna [19th C Hindu saint] 'So long as one does not become simple like a child one does not get divine illumination.'  Takuan (16th Century Zen Abbot) 'Zen is to have the heart and soul of a little child.' and from the Tao Te Ching
'In the midst of excitement and emotion
Can you hold to Tao and never let go?
Can you sustain the strength of that union
And attain the simplicity of a small child?'

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28236 on: April 22, 2018, 10:45:16 AM »
A possible answer is that your grand-daughter is closer to being 'pure of soul' than you are and that as her attention i.e. the direction of her consciousness becomes more and more attracted to the worldly so that purity becomes diminished.  Something anti spiritual is going on and as Jesus is alleged to have said in L18/17:   Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child will not be able to enter therein.

The curious thing though is that Alan portrays the 'soul' as being some sort of arbiter that interacts with the brain in real time in relation to making choices and decisions so I'm unclear as to whether or not the 'soul', as Alan portrays it, functions in tandem with the capacities of the functioning brain it is interacting with or has some form of independent role.

For instance: are 'souls' limited by the condition of its brain such as where the brain is immature, as in the case of my younger grand-daughter, so presumably the 'soul' must only become fully functional when its brain is also fully functional, and is the 'soul' constrained in its role if its brain is compromised in some way, as would be the case of a brain with a form of dementia or had suffered trauma. If so, then Alan looks to be conflating 'souls' with 'brains' (which I suspect he is) but if not then the usefulness of this 'soul' thing is subject to compromise by immaturity or damage, which doesn't seem like a very effective design feature.     

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28237 on: April 22, 2018, 11:10:42 AM »
I doubt whether conversion would do any good.  In the context of the question, what would be needed is a teacher who could demonstrate how to 'receive the Kingdom of God as a little child'.  The idea is not unique to Christian scripture: Sri Ramakrishna [19th C Hindu saint] 'So long as one does not become simple like a child one does not get divine illumination.'  Takuan (16th Century Zen Abbot) 'Zen is to have the heart and soul of a little child.' and from the Tao Te Ching
'In the midst of excitement and emotion
Can you hold to Tao and never let go?
Can you sustain the strength of that union
And attain the simplicity of a small child?'

Well I got god as a kid of 11, but disposed of it by the time I was an adult.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28238 on: April 22, 2018, 12:54:11 PM »
Just come across a critic of Dr Ramachanderon's ideas about consciousness from Raymond Tallis:

"The trouble begins when the neurologist turns philosopher and tries to use these insights to get closer to "what makes us human." He suggests that such cross-wiring underpins both humans' ability to enjoy metaphors and artists' capacity to create novel connections—an assertion that has scarcely any research to back it up. (What little has been done depends on laughably simplistic models of how metaphors and creativity really work.) Likewise, his explanation of how we became speaking animals has scarcely a toe-hold on empirical data."

In essence, any attempt to explain human conscious awareness in terms of the reactions in material particles is doomed to failure, because there can be no material explanation for human conscious awareness.

Just a thought Alan, how about taking the Doctors words from, as they say, from the horses mouth and let your imaginary little man inside your head translate it directly to you himself.

I have every hope for you Alan, eventually, regards ippy

SteveH

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28239 on: April 22, 2018, 01:11:46 PM »
In that case there is no point in converting when you are an adult!
"AS a little child", i.e. like, not when, meaning with the simplicity and guilelessness of a child.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28240 on: April 22, 2018, 01:32:26 PM »
"AS a little child", i.e. like, not when, meaning with the simplicity and guilelessness of a child.

In other words, GULLIBLE! ::)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28241 on: April 22, 2018, 01:48:59 PM »
The curious thing though is that Alan portrays the 'soul' as being some sort of arbiter that interacts with the brain in real time in relation to making choices and decisions so I'm unclear as to whether or not the 'soul', as Alan portrays it, functions in tandem with the capacities of the functioning brain it is interacting with or has some form of independent role.

For instance: are 'souls' limited by the condition of its brain such as where the brain is immature, as in the case of my younger grand-daughter, so presumably the 'soul' must only become fully functional when its brain is also fully functional, and is the 'soul' constrained in its role if its brain is compromised in some way, as would be the case of a brain with a form of dementia or had suffered trauma. If so, then Alan looks to be conflating 'souls' with 'brains' (which I suspect he is) but if not then the usefulness of this 'soul' thing is subject to compromise by immaturity or damage, which doesn't seem like a very effective design feature.   
The physical brain is the soul's window into this material world, so the soul will be entirely dependent on the physical functioning of the brain in order to perceive its contents and fully interact with it.  Hence our young ones will not be able to fully function as adults until their brains are fully developed.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

SteveH

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28242 on: April 22, 2018, 01:56:01 PM »
In other words, GULLIBLE! ::)
There's childlike, which means guileless, trusting, honest, etc: the good things about childhood, and then there's childish, which refers to the bad things about childhood, such as flouncing, being deliberately obtuse, and excessive use of capital letters and exclamation marks.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28243 on: April 22, 2018, 02:08:23 PM »
There's childlike, which means guileless, trusting, honest, etc: the good things about childhood, and then there's childish, which refers to the bad things about childhood, such as flouncing, being deliberately obtuse, and excessive use of capital letters and exclamation marks.

People should NOT be trusting where religion is concerned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28244 on: April 22, 2018, 03:00:26 PM »
I came upon this article recently https://tinyurl.com/y979zvwp

The first 3 paragraphs sum up some of my own suspicions about affirmations of absolute religious certainty.

I can't help thinking that the demand for such certainty must have deep insecurity at its root - and as its fruit.
I am quite sure that the apostles had absolute certainty after witnessing the resurrection, because without this certainty I doubt that they would ever have had the courage promote their faith against the backdrop of hostility from the Romans and Jewish hierarchy.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28245 on: April 22, 2018, 03:02:06 PM »
The physical brain is the soul's window into this material world...

So your god made souls that are magic enough to sense an entire brain in such detail as to be able to use it as a window into the world but not magic enough to directly sense the world without all that mucking around with brains.

Upminster.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28246 on: April 22, 2018, 03:37:29 PM »
I am quite sure that the apostles had absolute certainty after witnessing the resurrection, because without this certainty I doubt that they would ever have had the courage promote their faith against the backdrop of hostility from the Romans and Jewish hierarchy.

It hasn't even been proved that all of the apostles existed, looks like you've accepted this on authority just like the rest of the mystical, magical unsubstantiated superstitional stories you've accepted, in likely the same way.

I like most non-religious people wouldn't mind so much about your not so unusual but strange choice of beliefs, if it wasn't for the fact it gets passed on to very young and, well known by all to be vulnerable, children by people like you as though it were the truth, other than that live on in any nonsensical world you want to conjer up for yourselves, feel free.

Good and kind wishes for you and particularly yours Alan, ippy

 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 03:11:07 PM by ippy »

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28247 on: April 22, 2018, 03:49:59 PM »
The curious thing though is that Alan portrays the 'soul' as being some sort of arbiter that interacts with the brain in real time in relation to making choices and decisions so I'm unclear as to whether or not the 'soul', as Alan portrays it, functions in tandem with the capacities of the functioning brain it is interacting with or has some form of independent role.

For instance: are 'souls' limited by the condition of its brain such as where the brain is immature, as in the case of my younger grand-daughter, so presumably the 'soul' must only become fully functional when its brain is also fully functional, and is the 'soul' constrained in its role if its brain is compromised in some way, as would be the case of a brain with a form of dementia or had suffered trauma. If so, then Alan looks to be conflating 'souls' with 'brains' (which I suspect he is) but if not then the usefulness of this 'soul' thing is subject to compromise by immaturity or damage, which doesn't seem like a very effective design feature.   
I'll leave you to debate with Alan about his portrayal.  Part of the problem in the discussion is the same as discussing 'god', nobody seems to give a definition of 'soul.  From memory, the word 'soul' has a Germanic origin and meant 'life'.  It is a word that has been used in place of a number of Hebrew words in the Old Testament the most notable of which are... nephesh - instincts, appetites, drives which we share with the animal world, and - neshama - human mind but with divine inspirational qualities.  The latter is  similar in concept to the Greek word 'psyche' used in the New Testament.  Inspiration means to breath in, which perhaps brings another association with Latin - spiritus, Greek - pneuma, Hebrew - ruwach - (breath, breeze air, life), generally translated as 'spirit'. 
I think the physical body was seen more as a vehicle for the 'soul'.  To make matters worse, I believe the heart and mind were almost synonymous.  The physical brain probably didn't enter into the symbolism and I would guess neither did the physical heart.  The heart probably was a symbolic centre and efforts made to keep it pure and free from those emotions considered as 'sin'.  The other aspect was the 'light of life' i.e. consciousness which needed to be kept clear and free from darkening attachments.  Clarity of vision and purity of heart were necessary to enter the heavenly state.  I would take Matt 7:5 to mean 'How can you correct the spiritual vision of others when your own is worse. First get your own vision clear then you will be in a position to clarify others.' and Matt 5:8.. 'Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.' ... a consciousness unclouded by conceptualisation and a heart free from emotional attachments.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28248 on: April 22, 2018, 03:52:56 PM »
Just read Christopher Hitchens’ memoir “Mortality” on a flight last night (very moving by the way) where he says something that encapsulates well AB’s central error: he thinks he has a body, whereas in fact he is a body.

Alas they are even trying to steal that last vestige of humanity from us, Hillside.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43674270

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28249 on: April 22, 2018, 04:03:25 PM »
I am quite sure that the apostles had absolute certainty after witnessing the resurrection, because without this certainty I doubt that they would ever have had the courage promote their faith against the backdrop of hostility from the Romans and Jewish hierarchy.
I looked at your link Alan: https://tinyurl.com/y979zvwp

Why would anyone spend time doubting that 'Do dar niggi nigs' exist, exactly in the same way same as with religions, all of them.

My apologies to any 'Do dar niggi nigists' out there.

Regards to you Alan