Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

The physical brain is the soul's window into this material world, so the soul will be entirely dependent on the physical functioning of the brain in order to perceive its contents and fully interact with it.  Hence our young ones will not be able to fully function as adults until their brains are fully developed.

In which you utterly miss the point: I'm quite familiar with the development of people from being young to being adult (having had 3 children and also 4 grandchildren to date) - but what is the status of the 'soul' during this process: do 'souls' mature alongside brains?

For example, would a brain that is malfunctioning in some way due to illness or injury still have a fully functional 'soul' but where the ability of this soul to do whatever it does is now compromised by the problems in the brain it interacts with if, to use your analogy, its 'window' is no longer as transparent as it could be, or it once was? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In which you utterly miss the point: I'm quite familiar with the development of people from being young to being adult (having had 3 children and also 4 grandchildren to date) - but what is the status of the 'soul' during this process: do 'souls' mature alongside brains?

Hmm. What about those who started off as peace loving egalitarian hippies, transmuted into mild Thatcherites and are going to end up Rees Mogg worshipping Brexiteers?

[Gordon]

Hmm. What about those who started off as peace loving egalitarian hippies, transmuted into mild Thatcherites and are going to end up Rees Mogg worshipping Brexiteers?

I thank Alan thinks we've all got 'souls', Vlad - even Rees Mogg: I'm just curious about how these 'souls' operate where the brain it apparently interacts with is either immature or in some way damaged.

Do you happen to know?

[SusanDoris]

I thank Alan thinks we've all got 'souls', Vlad - even Rees Mogg: I'm just curious about how these 'souls' operate where the brain it apparently interacts with is either immature or in some way damaged.

Do you happen to know?

Well, I for one wait with considerable interest for AB's response.

[Enki]

In which you utterly miss the point: I'm quite familiar with the development of people from being young to being adult (having had 3 children and also 4 grandchildren to date) - but what is the status of the 'soul' during this process: do 'souls' mature alongside brains?

For example, would a brain that is malfunctioning in some way due to illness or injury still have a fully functional 'soul' but where the ability of this soul to do whatever it does is now compromised by the problems in the brain it interacts with if, to use your analogy, its 'window' is no longer as transparent as it could be, or it once was?

Perhaps what is needed is a spiritual specsavers, especially useful for the very young and for the brain damaged.

[Alan Burns]

In which you utterly miss the point: I'm quite familiar with the development of people from being young to being adult (having had 3 children and also 4 grandchildren to date) - but what is the status of the 'soul' during this process: do 'souls' mature alongside brains?

It may be true that the soul matures along with the brain, but I admit I am out of my depth in speculating about this.

What I do know is that the physical functionality of a material brain can never achieve self awareness or freedom to consciously choose, because these functions are beyond anything which can be achieved by physical deterministic activity alone.

For example, would a brain that is malfunctioning in some way due to illness or injury still have a fully functional 'soul' but where the ability of this soul to do whatever it does is now compromised by the problems in the brain it interacts with if, to use your analogy, its 'window' is no longer as transparent as it could be, or it once was?

Of course when the physical brain malfunctions, the perception and control of the soul will be disrupted in some way.

[ippy]

It may be true that the soul matures along with the brain, but I admit I am out of my depth in speculating about this.

What I do know is that the physical functionality of a material brain can never achieve self awareness or freedom to consciously choose, because these functions are beyond anything which can be achieved by physical deterministic activity alone.Of course when the physical brain malfunctions, the perception and control of the soul will be disrupted in some way.

If I didn't know better Alan, I'd have thought you were having a joke with the posters on the this thread?

Sad but regards anyway Alan, ippy

[Gordon]

It may be true that the soul matures along with the brain, but I admit I am out of my depth in speculating about this.

I thought you were out of your depth too, which is disappointing since you seem so certain and yet you know zilch about how these 'souls' work.

What I do know is that the physical functionality of a material brain can never achieve self awareness or freedom to consciously choose, because these functions are beyond anything which can be achieved by physical deterministic activity alone.Of course when the physical brain malfunctions, the perception and control of the soul will be disrupted in some way.

You don't know this at all, Alan: in fact, I'd say you are just making it up so as to fit your fallacious reasoning.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

People should NOT be trusting where religion is concerned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweeping and simplistic generalisation. It might not work for everyone but on an individual basis my experience is there are certain aspects of religion that only work if you put your trust in something you can't prove exists. My experience is it brings, amongst other things, a sense of perspective and peace, which seems to be accompanied by positive physiological changes. Hence, in my case, no reason to switch to atheism when theism is working so positively.

And Ippy, just for you - I'm having a great ride as a theist - if my children want to come along for the ride, theism is part of the package. Up to them if they want to enjoy the perks of sharing their parents' journey through shared cultural and life experiences and activities or if they want to strike out in their own direction and end up being emotionally distanced from their parents. I find I feel closer to people I have shared experiences with.

[Stranger]

What I do know is that the physical functionality of a material brain can never achieve self awareness or freedom to consciously choose, because these functions are beyond anything which can be achieved by physical deterministic activity alone.

You know nothing of the sort. I'm sure you believe it but you have no evidence and no reasoning to back it up and you repeatedly run away from facing up to the logic that shows that your choices must be deterministic or random (in some combination) - even if your mind isn't physical.

[SteveH]

You know nothing of the sort. I'm sure you believe it but you have no evidence and no reasoning to back it up and you repeatedly run away from facing up to the logic that shows that your choices must be deterministic or random (in some combination) - even if your mind isn't physical.

If all our choices are either deterministic or random, we can never know that all our choices are either determnistic or random. If what we choose to believe is deterministic, we were destined from all eternity to believe it, and logic has nothing to do with it, and if it is random, once again logic has nothing to do with it.

[torridon]

What I do know is that the physical functionality of a material brain can never achieve self awareness or freedom to consciously choose, because these functions are beyond anything which can be achieved by physical deterministic activity alone.

Evidence please, Mr Assertion.

Simply parroting out grand assertions isn't going to cut it, you need to show your working to demonstrate how you reach your conclusions.

[torridon]

It may be true that the soul matures along with the brain, but I admit I am out of my depth in speculating about this.

just as you are out of your depth as regards the soul's temperature or speed or composition or nature or boundaries or limitations or energy source or just about anything really.  This is typical of the mess that is born of failing to observe proper principles of investigation which  starts with the evidence and then draws conclusions from it.  'Souls' is just a black box of magic born of nothing grander than your incredulity that mind can arise from matter.  You really need to get over it.

[Stranger]

If all our choices are either deterministic or random, we can never know that all our choices are either determnistic or random. If what we choose to believe is deterministic, we were destined from all eternity to believe it, and logic has nothing to do with it...

Firstly, why do you think determinism leads to the conclusion that "logic has nothing to do with it"? What is it about it that would rule out the evolution of rational minds?

Secondly, how would you propose that a choice (or any event) can take place without being some combination of determinism and randomness? To the extent something is not determined by its logical antecedents, it must be random, that's what random means.

[SteveH]

Firstly, why do you think determinism leads to the conclusion that "logic has nothing to do with it"? What is it about it that would rule out the evolution of rational minds?

Secondly, how would you propose that a choice (or any event) can take place without being some combination of determinism and randomness? To the extent something is not determined by its logical antecedents, it must be random, that's what random means.

This is surely wrong - there is a spectrum between out-and-out determinism and out-and-out randomness, in which choices can be influenced to a greater or lesser degree without being inescapably determined.
"Logic has nothing to do with it" because all of us were predestined from all eternity to believe what we believe, on a fully deterministic view.

[floo]

This is surely wrong - there is a spectrum between out-and-out determinism and out-and-out randomness, in which choices can be influenced to a greater or lesser degree without being inescapably determined.
"Logic has nothing to do with it" because all of us were predestined from all eternity to believe what we believe, on a fully deterministic view.

A meaningless sentence!

[SteveH]

A meaningless sentence!

Your inability to understand it does not make it meaningless, and the part that you have emboldened is not a complete sentence in any case.

[floo]

Your inability to understand it does not make it meaningless, and the part that you have emboldened is not a complete sentence in any case.

Do you understand it?

[SteveH]

Do you understand it?

Allow me to explain. If full determinism is the correct view of the universe; that is if there is no choice or free-will because everything is fixed in advance; then what we believe is fixed in advance, and even though we think that what we believe is based on logic, in fact it isn't, because we could never have believed otherwise.

[Nearly Sane]

Allow me to explain. If full determinism is the correct view of the universe; that is if there is no choice or free-will because everything is fixed in advance; then what we believe is fixed in advance, and even though we think that what we believe is based on logic, in fact it isn't, because we could never have believed otherwise.

  That's a false dichotomy. That we would have no choice what to believe does not necessitate that what we believe isn't logical. We might be predetermined to believe something based on logic.

[Stranger]

This is surely wrong - there is a spectrum between out-and-out determinism and out-and-out randomness, in which choices can be influenced to a greater or lesser degree without being inescapably determined.

They must all be some combination of the two. To the extent that a choice is not determined by its antecedents, it must be random. If some aspect or part of an event is not determined by anything, then it is determined by nothing - which is what random means. See: Deterministic system:

In mathematics, computer science and physics, a deterministic system is a system in which no randomness is involved in the development of future states of the system. A deterministic model will thus always produce the same output from a given starting condition or initial state.

"Logic has nothing to do with it" because all of us were predestined from all eternity to believe what we believe, on a fully deterministic view.

You said that, but you still haven't said why.

Evolved systems are compatible with determinism: evolved hearts actually are pretty good at pumping blood, simple plant and animal behaviours are pretty good at avoiding threats and finding necessities. Why wouldn't evolved minds be able to find an utilise logic?

[SteveH]

  That's a false dichotomy. That we would have no choice what to believe does not necessitate that what we believe isn't logical. We might be predetermined to believe something based on logic.

What we believe may be logical, but we can never know, because there are so many mutually inconsistent beliefs.

[SteveH]

Evolved systems are compatible with determinism: evolved hearts actually are pretty good at pumping blood, simple plant and animal behaviours are pretty good at avoiding threats and finding necessities. Why wouldn't evolved minds be able to find an utilise logic?

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing against evolution; heaven forbid. What I'm talking about is strict determinism as applied to your individual beliefs, not as applied to the evolution of brains.

[Nearly Sane]

What we believe may be logical, but we can never know, because there are so many mutually inconsistent beliefs.

That's a non sequitur. That there are many mutually inconsistent beliefs does not mean that we could not know what is logical ) and that isn't what your previous post was stating anyway). Indeed, there's a problem of direct contradiction in your post here in that if we can't tell that something is logical then the idea of mutually contradictory becomes meaningless.

You#re back at your previous problem of 'going nuclear' in that if you remove all assumptions, your own claims become meaningless.

[Nearly Sane]

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing against evolution; heaven forbid. What I'm talking about is strict determinism as applied to your individual beliefs, not as applied to the evolution of brains.

And other than determinism, random or a mix of both, what are you proposing can happen?