Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Alan

Let me precis the above for you: 'God: like, wow man!'

In essence, that is all you ever say.

No, it is not God who has the Wow factor - not yet, until we meet Him in heaven.

The Wow factor is myself.  It is in the fact that I exist, that I am aware of my existence, that I have conscious control over my existence, and that I am able to think, to imagine, to dream, to achieve, to create, to love, to pray, to hope ...
Is this a reflection of the uncontrollable deterministic nature of our material universe?  I can say with absolute certainty that it is not.
I am a reflection of a loving, creative power whose nature is far beyond human understanding, for I am made in God's image.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

No, it is not God who has the Wow factor - not yet, until we meet Him in heaven.

The Wow factor is myself.  It is in the fact that I exist, that I am aware of my existence, that I have conscious control over my existence, and that I am able to think, to imagine, to dream, to achieve, to create, to love, to pray, to hope ...
Is this a reflection of the uncontrollable deterministic nature of our material universe?  I can say with absolute certainty that it is not.
I am a reflection of a loving, creative power whose nature is far beyond human understanding, for I am made in God's image.

No doubt you believe all that to be true. If we could get back to first principles for a minute though, your whole ontology rests on the notion that no processing entity, however complex, could be self aware (and so there must therefore be another "something" to do the "perceiving" that is itself somehow exempt from this constraint).

You've asserted this many times, but have never told us why you think it to be true. Why couldn't consciousness and self-awareness be just an emergent property of the unfathomably complex processes of the brain? Emergence as a phenomenon is pretty much everywhere you look, and we know that remarkably complex properties can emerge from individually "stupid" components with no grand plan, leadership etc needed for it to be so. I see no particular barrier conceptually or in practice that would exclude consciousness from that paradigm yet you just assert it to be so over and over again.

Why is that? What's the big issue to your mind that would stop a sufficiently complex processor from being self aware (just as, presumably, you claim the "soul" to be)?

[torridon]

No, it is not God who has the Wow factor - not yet, until we meet Him in heaven.

The Wow factor is myself.  It is in the fact that I exist, that I am aware of my existence, that I have conscious control over my existence, and that I am able to think, to imagine, to dream, to achieve, to create, to love, to pray, to hope ...
Is this a reflection of the uncontrollable deterministic nature of our material universe?  I can say with absolute certainty that it is not.
I am a reflection of a loving, creative power whose nature is far beyond human understanding, for I am made in God's image.

I think you need to get over that certainty problem.  Nobody can be certain of such things.  A little bit of doubt opens up your mind to other possibilities, it is healthy.  Certainty is a symptom of a closed, unenquiring mind,  I'm afraid.

[Gordon]

No, it is not God who has the Wow factor - not yet, until we meet Him in heaven.

The Wow factor is myself.  It is in the fact that I exist, that I am aware of my existence, that I have conscious control over my existence, and that I am able to think, to imagine, to dream, to achieve, to create, to love, to pray, to hope ...
Is this a reflection of the uncontrollable deterministic nature of our material universe?  I can say with absolute certainty that it is not.
I am a reflection of a loving, creative power whose nature is far beyond human understanding, for I am made in God's image.

Since you seemingly have absolute certainty in your own divine wonderfulness, one wonders why you keep falling headfirst into so many fallacies: if you are indeed 'made in God's image' then I'm not convinced you are a good advert for 'God'. 

[Aruntraveller]

For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars makes me dream.


Van Gogh

[Sebastian Toe]

I can say with absolute certainty that it is not.

The only thing that anyone can say with absolute certainty, is that nobody can say anything with absolute certainty!

[ippy]

In effect Alan, without counting the amount of words you've used, you might as well say Jif Jaffs are my whole reason for living, they control everything, we all know the next question, you've never answered the obvious next question and it looks like you can't answer the question or refuse to answer the question or don't know the answer to the question?

What's the problem Alan?

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.

[SteveH]

The only thing that anyone can say with absolute certainty, is that nobody can say anything with absolute certainty!

and I'm not altogether sure about that.

[Alan Burns]

Since you seemingly have absolute certainty in your own divine wonderfulness, one wonders why you keep falling headfirst into so many fallacies: if you are indeed 'made in God's image' then I'm not convinced you are a good advert for 'God'.

None of us are perfect, Gordon - life would be very boring and pointless if we were.  Do you have the humility and courage to admit to your faults and accept Jesus as your saviour?

[Gordon]

None of us are perfect, Gordon - life would be very boring and pointless if we were.  Do you have the humility and courage to admit to your faults and accept Jesus as your saviour?

The former certainly, but not the latter since I can see no basis to take the idea seriously.

[torridon]

None of us are perfect, Gordon - life would be very boring and pointless if we were.  Do you have the humility and courage to admit to your faults and accept Jesus as your saviour?

So you would have Gordon become boring and pointless ?

I guess that also means that life in Heaven would be boring and pointless too.  Well I always thought that much, but I'm surprised to find you see it that way too.

[ekim]

I guess that also means that life in Heaven would be boring and pointless too.  Well I always thought that much, but I'm surprised to find you see it that way too.

A good guess but guesses, boredom and pointlessness are mental states which can drive the mind to distraction.  The 'Jesus method' is more about a 'state of being' beyond the mind which manifests as joy, blissfulness, love.  It is a 'heaven within' which is here and now and which is wholly fulfilling and enlivening rather than the product of mental stimuli and mental satisfaction.  It is unlikely that Jesus will be your saviour but his method might give a different direction to that of the customary ego driven mind.

[savillerow]

MSG 28363 AB "and accept jesus as your saviour" Weve got to push this thinking to the cliff edge, in my lifetime please. As i get older Im starting to get my patience stretched listening to faith minded people having naive, ignorant and lazy thinking. Theres a clue for so many people out there. The clue is . . . . .think. Think what you are saying, proposing, the outcome, the end game, the not thought through wishes of your beliefs, the heaven silliness, the afterlife silliness, the hell silliness, the holy ghost silliness(added in the 4th century), the praying absurdity, the miracle claims. Its Sunday im getting annoyed but having a bbq this afternoon. Ahh that makes sense.

[SusanDoris]

MSG 28363 AB "and accept jesus as your saviour" Weve got to push this thinking to the cliff edge, in my lifetime please. As i get older Im starting to get my patience stretched listening to faith minded people having naive, ignorant and lazy thinking. Theres a clue for so many people out there. The clue is . . . . .think. Think what you are saying, proposing, the outcome, the end game, the not thought through wishes of your beliefs, the heaven silliness, the afterlife silliness, the hell silliness, the holy ghost silliness(added in the 4th century), the praying absurdity, the miracle claims. Its Sunday im getting annoyed but having a bbq this afternoon. Ahh that makes sense.

Yes, it is so clear, evidential and obvious that it is astonishing how many people still want to believe in the myth. However, most people I know are not interested in entering into conversation or long-running topics on the subject!! All my family are non-believers and run their lives accordingly. Their friends seem to be similarly minded, even if they do sort of assume that they will be buried or cremated (mostly the latter) when their lives end simply because it is the way things are.

I'm still optimistic that the background culture is gradually, but all too slowly, changing, but I might be wrong!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

All my family are non-believers and run their lives accordingly. Their friends seem to be similarly minded,

Theirs a bit of a conflict between living your life according to being a non believer and atheism being merely the lack of belief in Gods isn't there?
I wonder how many see atheism as a way of life or that a way of life is drawn from something else.

[Maeght]

Theirs a bit of a conflict between living your life according to being a non believer and atheism being merely the lack of belief in Gods isn't there?
I wonder how many see atheism as a way of life or that a way of life is drawn from something else.

No conflict. Don't know why you would think there is.

[SusanDoris]

Theirs a bit of a conflict between living your life according to being a non believer and atheism being merely the lack of belief in Gods isn't there?
I wonder how many see atheism as a way of life or that a way of life is drawn from something else.

That sounds like muddled thinking to me; I can see no way of answering it.

[Enki]

Theirs a bit of a conflict between living your life according to being a non believer and atheism being merely the lack of belief in Gods isn't there?
I wonder how many see atheism as a way of life or that a way of life is drawn from something else.

Well as I'm a non believer, I also run my life accordingly. Having no particular truck with any religion I find is quite suitable for me in my particular situation. Can't see where any conflict arises?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Susan,

That sounds like muddled thinking to me; I can see no way of answering it.

Yes, it's just muddled thinking. People no more live their lives according to being a non-believer in Vlad's god than they live their lives according to being a non-believer in leprechauns. They/we don't wake up every day and think, "now then, how should I live this day according to my non-belief?". The only time it impinges really is when those who would assert "god" (or leprechauns) arrogate rights and privileges for their beliefs that affect others such that they get a "now hang on a minute" in reply.   

[SteveH]

Hi Susan,

Yes, it's just muddled thinking. People no more live their lives according to being a non-believer in Vlad's god than they live their lives according to being a non-believer in leprechauns. They/we don't wake up every day and think, "now then, how should I live this day according to my non-belief?". The only time it impinges really is when those who would assert "god" (or leprechauns) arrogate rights and privileges for their beliefs that affect others such that they get a "now hang on a minute" in reply.

I don't think that's altogether true. Thinking non-believers (as opposed to the apathetic herd) try to live according to ethical stndards which assume that this life and this world are all we've got, which are different to the ethics of those who believe in a God or Gods; usually some version of utilitarianism.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Steve H,

I don't think that's altogether true. Thinking non-believers (as opposed to the apathetic herd) try to live according to ethical stndards which assume that this life and this world are all we've got, which are different to the ethics of those who believe in a God or Gods; usually some version of untilitarianism.

Actually most religious people are in practice utilitarian in their daily lives too - slicing the cake equally between the kids at the birthday party will lead to the greatest contentment among them etc. The difference is when faith beliefs intervene for some ("homosexuality is bad because a book says it's a sin" etc) but in general the notion of atheism informing most atheists' day-to-day lives is daft.     

[SusanDoris]

I don't think that's altogether true. Thinking non-believers (as opposed to the apathetic herd) try to live according to ethical stndards which assume that this life and this world are all we've got, which are different to the ethics of those who believe in a God or Gods; usually some version of untilitarianism.

Well, actually, this life and this world are all we've got. You can imagine otherwise as much as you like, but  there is a total lack of evidence for any such thing, place or state. And in my strongly held opinion, those who believe that a god has anything to do with their ethics are deluding themselves, unlike atheists who imagine no such thing and are fully aware that we humans are responsible for all we do and the ethical way we behave.

P.S. And did you intend that n to be the second letter  of the last word of your post?


bluehillside
Thank you for post.

[SteveH]

Oops! Edited.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Steve H,

Oops! Edited.

Maybe you've invented something there though: "OK things might be grim for you now, but you should accept your lot until the glorious sunlit uplands of the afterlife that awaits" = "Untilitarianism"!

You should keep (and copyright) it 
 

[SusanDoris]

I noticed the extra 'n' because Synthetic Dave reads what is there but another reason is because I am following a long-running topic on 'universalism', or whether all will enter heaven or not, be *saved* or not, etc.  It is a serious discussion with reference to many New Testament quotes, but for me it is of course one of those things where the Emperor has no clothes. I have not found a suitable place to say this yet.