Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

Lets face it Alan you use prayer like others touch wood, for instance, when hoping for a good outcome! Sometimes it works, sometimes is doesn't, the luck of the draw!

An excellent comparison.

[Shaker]

The phrase I used simply indicates that God may often work through other people to answer prayers.

In which case how do you tell the difference between God working through people and people doing what people do?

[Alan Burns]

The point was; I gave the example of human heroics saving a child where people were thanking God and I asked why God let the child be in danger in the first place or why God couldn't just rescue the child without requiring the human intervention you suggested that God uses humans to do such things rather than intervening himself. the quote TW used shows God simply using heavenly fire to directly intervene. This seems to conflict with what you suggested.

I think when you use the word deduction you are misusing the term. You have interpreted things which could purely be human actions as having divine origins, based on your beliefs. You don't have to be a skeptic to conclude that there is quite likely confirmation basis associated with perfectly normal coincidences going on.

I asked if you could provide any examples of clear divine intervention, with good supporting evidence, which couldn't possibly have happened otherwise. Have you thought of any yet or are they all like your Lepano and contact lens examples i.e. very unconvincing?

Just imagine the utopia in which God answers all prayers by direct intervention, and as a result all pain, suffering and disease are eradicated from this earth.  With God doing all that is needed, we will all be free to indulge in whatever we desire.  The joy of helping other people will be replaced by the pleasures of self indulgence.  Our capacity to love will diminish as our capacity to over indulge increases.  The world will be dominated by those with an ever increasing need to seek deeper pleasures with no detrimental consequences.  This imagined utopia would literally become a hell on earth.

The presence of pain and suffering in all our lives is somehow needed to keep things in check, and to purge our self centred desires in order to prepare us to fully experience the joys of heaven.  I firmly believe that God answers all sincere prayers by giving us what we need rather than what we want, and our ultimate need is the ability to experience the joy of our existence in Heaven in God's presence.

[Rhiannon]

So we suffer because it's good for us. 

Isn't heaven supposed to be free from suffering?

How did God answer my prayer, Alan? As you know I spent two years praying for God yo come back into my life, firstly at a relatively good time in my life and then increasingly as I lurched from loss and fear to crisis. In the end when God didn't show I gave up. I promise you there was nothing more on earth I wanted at this time than to know God was with myself and my loved ones. Does God think it better that I am an unbeliever? Is that what is 'good' for me? Along with any suffering and pain of course.

[Alan Burns]

So we suffer because it's good for us. 

Isn't heaven supposed to be free from suffering?

How did God answer my prayer, Alan? As you know I spent two years praying for God yo come back into my life, firstly at a relatively good time in my life and then increasingly as I lurched from loss and fear to crisis. In the end when God didn't show I gave up. I promise you there was nothing more on earth I wanted at this time than to know God was with myself and my loved ones. Does God think it better that I am an unbeliever? Is that what is 'good' for me? Along with any suffering and pain of course.

Rhi,
Heaven is indeed free from pain and suffering as the bible tells us.

God does not promise to eradicate suffering from our earthly lives, but He does promise to give us the strength and grace to endure whatever comes if we keep faith in Him.  Faith is the key to unlock His saving grace.

I have no idea how difficult it is to regain your faith once you have lost it, because it has never happened to me.  I just hope and pray that you will never give up and have the courage to ask Him back into your life again.  The fact that you are still posting on this forum is a sign of hope.  May God bless you and your loved ones with the wonderful gift of faith.

[Maeght]

The point was; I gave the example of human heroics saving a child where people were thanking God and I asked why God let the child be in danger in the first place or why God couldn't just rescue the child without requiring the human intervention you suggested that God uses humans to do such things rather than intervening himself. the quote TW used shows God simply using heavenly fire to directly intervene. This seems to conflict with what you suggested.

I think when you use the word deduction you are misusing the term. You have interpreted things which could purely be human actions as having divine origins, based on your beliefs. You don't have to be a skeptic to conclude that there is quite likely confirmation basis associated with perfectly normal coincidences going on.

I asked if you could provide any examples of clear divine intervention, with good supporting evidence, which couldn't possibly have happened otherwise. Have you thought of any yet or are they all like your Lepano and contact lens examples i.e. very unconvincing?

Just imagine the utopia in which God answers all prayers by direct intervention, and as a result all pain, suffering and disease are eradicated from this earth.  With God doing all that is needed, we will all be free to indulge in whatever we desire.  The joy of helping other people will be replaced by the pleasures of self indulgence.  Our capacity to love will diminish as our capacity to over indulge increases.  The world will be dominated by those with an ever increasing need to seek deeper pleasures with no detrimental consequences.  This imagined utopia would literally become a hell on earth.

Imagine what you like but irrelevant to what I asked.

The presence of pain and suffering in all our lives is somehow needed to keep things in check, and to purge our self centred desires in order to prepare us to fully experience the joys of heaven.  I firmly believe that God answers all sincere prayers by giving us what we need rather than what we want, and our ultimate need is the ability to experience the joy of our existence in Heaven in God's presence.

Believe what you want of course, just so lomg as you recognise that it is a belief and don't try to push it as fact. I guess you can't provide any better examples than Lepano or the contact lens hunt then?

[Alan Burns]

I guess you can't provide any better examples than Lepanto or the contact lens hunt then?

I can quote many examples of God's answers to prayers, but in every case I believe you will be able to point out a natural explanation which just happens to coincide with the prayer request.  This is because God's interactions with our world, I believe, are achieved by manipulating rather than overriding the laws of nature.  As I have pointed out previously, this ability to interact by manipulation is demonstrated in the human soul's ability to initiate free will events in the human brain.

[Shaker]

I can quote many examples of God's answers to prayers, but in every case I believe you will be able to point out a natural explanation which just happens to coincide with the prayer request.

... which leads us neatly back to the familiar but unanswerable point that you can't tell the difference between God at work and no God at work, rendering the former redundant.

[BeRational]

I guess you can't provide any better examples than Lepanto or the contact lens hunt then?

I can quote many examples of God's answers to prayers, but in every case I believe you will be able to point out a natural explanation which just happens to coincide with the prayer request.  This is because God's interactions with our world, I believe, are achieved by manipulating rather than overriding the laws of nature.  As I have pointed out previously, this ability to interact by manipulation is demonstrated in the human soul's ability to initiate free will events in the human brain.

How can you tell the difference god manipulating, and stuff just happening?

[ippy]

Alan are you in any way related to Sparky or NM as he referred to himself, he used to post here on this forum?

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Alan are you in any way related to Sparky or NM as he referred to himself, he used to post here on this forum?

ippy

No

[ippy]

Alan are you in any way related to Sparky or NM as he referred to himself, he used to post here on this forum?

ippy

No

Strange you sound exactly like he did, almost word for word, maybe you should get in touch with him, I'm sure the moderation team would help if you wanted to contact him.

ippy 

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

In what way does Alan remotely remind you of the founder of The Science of Righteousness.

I really don't want to offend Alan ( honest ) but he is kind of boring, Nicholas was/is lots of things but never boring.

Gonnagle.

[Maeght]

I guess you can't provide any better examples than Lepanto or the contact lens hunt then?

I can quote many examples of God's answers to prayers, but in every case I believe you will be able to point out a natural explanation which just happens to coincide with the prayer request.

So you can't quote any examples, with good supporting evidence, where the outcome could only be due to divine intervention. Fine. So it comes down to you interpretting events which could very easily have happened anyway as being answers to prayers. Again fine, whatever makes you happy.

This is because God's interactions with our world, I believe, are achieved by manipulating rather than overriding the laws of nature.

So how does that fit with TWs earlier quote, Sodom and Gomorrah, parting of the Red Sea and all the other apparent miracles in the bible?

As I have pointed out previously, this ability to interact by manipulation is demonstrated in the human soul's ability to initiate free will events in the human brain.

You've asserted it not pointed it out. Also irrelevant to the point I am making.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear ippy,

In what way does Alan remotely remind you of the founder of The Science of Righteousness.

I really don't want to offend Alan ( honest ) but he is kind of boring, Nicholas was/is lots of things but never boring.

Gonnagle.

I cannot see it either. I like Alan but he is not  in Nick's league. I miss Nick's posts.

[Maeght]

Alan are you in any way related to Sparky or NM as he referred to himself, he used to post here on this forum?

ippy

No

Strange you sound exactly like he did, almost word for word, maybe you should get in touch with him, I'm sure the moderation team would help if you wanted to contact him.

ippy

No, don't really see the similarity myself.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

In what way does Alan remotely remind you of the founder of The Science of Righteousness.

I really don't want to offend Alan ( honest ) but he is kind of boring, Nicholas was/is lots of things but never boring.

Gonnagle.

They both make equally as much sense as each other.

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

I think it was Buddha who once said, life is suffering and the cause is desire ( something like that ).

Dear Sane,

Can't be Nicholas, no gentlemanly good humour, our Nick had a quiet good naturedly sense of humour.

Gonnagle.

[floo]

Give Alan his due he doesn't lose it when challenged, like one particular 'Christian' poster!

[Rhiannon]

Alan definitely isn't NM. I understand Alan; I never understood a word NM posted, but loved reading his slightly trippy stream of consciousness stuff.

[Sebastian Toe]

Alan are you in any way related to Sparky or NM as he referred to himself, he used to post here on this forum?

ippy

No

Strange you sound exactly like he did, almost word for word

Not really,  Alan hasn't mentioned electricity or 'dynamic energy' yet.
Nick would shoehorn them into every second post!

[Enki]

Alan definitely isn't NM. I understand Alan; I never understood a word NM posted, but loved reading his slightly trippy stream of consciousness stuff.

I agree, Rhi.  NM's posts could be very entertaining. I always looked forward to reading all about God as the ultimate scientist. His points were often so way out that to respond with reasoned answers and arguments seemed somewhat useless. I loved his habit of delving into science, taking bits of it which appealed to him, and ignoring the rest. Alan's ideas, although undoubtedly sincerely held, seem so mundane in contrast and are far too easily argued against.

[floo]

Alan are you in any way related to Sparky or NM as he referred to himself, he used to post here on this forum?

ippy

No

Strange you sound exactly like he did, almost word for word

Not really,  Alan hasn't mentioned electricity or 'dynamic energy' yet.
Nick would shoehorn them into every second post!

Too right! I wonder why NM stopped posting?

[Nearly Sane]

Too right! I wonder why NM stopped posting?

http://spacecoastdaily.com/2012/08/nicholas-marks-international-artist-of-the-gypsy-guitar/

[floo]

Too right! I wonder why NM stopped posting?

http://spacecoastdaily.com/2012/08/nicholas-marks-international-artist-of-the-gypsy-guitar/

I rather doubt that is our NM!