Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3863468 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31425 on: September 28, 2018, 08:57:00 AM »
Eh ?  You have very short memory.  Here you are in #31408, just a little further up this same page  :

"I will continue to deny any theory which effectively removes the reality that we are capable of driving our own thoughts and invoking conscious choices.  Not spookiness, just demonstrable reality."

This thread would have finished thousands of posts ago but for your insistent denial of the findings of cognitive science, not to mentions various others such as evolutionary biology.

Just claiming our apparent reality is a "demonstrable reality" is facile.  You might as well push two apples to discover that they can touch and then declare that atomic theory and the whole of particle physics is wrong.  We might as well ditch the whole project of science if we are going to be satisfied that our apparent reality is the only game in town and it just springs out of nowhere with no underlying derivation.
I do not deny the findings of cognitive science.
I question the speculation that these findings can be used to show that conscious awareness is entirely defined by material properties alone.  There is a lot of information in the brain, but only one entity which perceives this information, which is you.
And as I have explained many times, the reality of my freedom to choose is demonstrable by what I consciously choose to do.  My freedom to do what I choose defines who I am.  It can't possibly be an illusion unless I myself am an illusion.  To compare the reality of my freedom to apples touching each other trivialises this amazing gift of freedom which allows us to create, to speculate, to discover, to imagine, to love, to pray ...........

I do not deny the findings of evolutionary biology.
I question the presumption that the process was entirely driven by uncontrolled random forces.  I believe that the reality of human free will to creatively interact with this material world (by the power of the human soul) to produce our many man made creations is a reflection of God's creative power to interact with our universe to bring about the spectrum of life on this earth.  If mankind can consciously manipulate the forces of nature to create, then so can God.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 09:15:19 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31426 on: September 28, 2018, 09:25:13 AM »
I do not deny the findings of cognitive science.
I question the speculation that these findings can be used to show that conscious awareness is entirely defined by material properties alone.  There is a lot of information in the brain, but only one entity which perceives this information, which is you.
And as I have explained many times, the reality of my freedom to choose is demonstrable by what I consciously choose to do.  My freedom to do what I choose defines who I am.  It can't possibly be an illusion unless I myself am an illusion.  To compare the reality of my freedom to apples touching each other trivialises this amazing gift of freedom which allows us to create, to speculate, to discover, to imagine, to love, to pray ...........

I do not deny the findings of evolutionary biology.
I question the presumption that the process was entirely driven by uncontrolled random forces.  I believe that the reality of human free will to creatively interact with this material world (by the power of the human soul) to produce our many man made creations is a reflection of God's creative power to interact with our universe to bring about the spectrum of life on this earth.  If mankind can consciously manipulate the forces of nature to create, then so can God.


Everything is effectively and illusion. You and all your feelings and desires and wants, are all electrical impulses. That's all the brain has. There is nothing else but complex electrical impulses. Colour, sound, vision all electrical impulses.
You are the emergent property of this vast set of electrical impulses. When they stop, do cease to exist.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31427 on: September 28, 2018, 09:31:16 AM »
AB,

Quote
Can you not differentiate between scientific findings and theories?

What you said was, "I will continue to deny any theory which effectively removes…" etc and then you said, "I have not dismissed any scientific findings to my knowledge".

In science, theories are "findings" you banana.

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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31428 on: September 28, 2018, 09:37:49 AM »
AB,

Quote
I think we can agree to differ in what you and I consider to have been be  falsified.

No we can't. The issue isn't whether you're able to rebut the falsifications, it's that you just ignore the completely. What you actually do is akin to asserting "2+2=5", I explain why it isn't, and you follow with "2+2=5". To say than that we can agree to differ on the falsification of your various errors in thinking is just more evasion. Of course you could prove me wrong by finally engaging - by explaining the process by which your personal perceptions are more reliable guides to objective realities than the reasoning and evidence that contradicts them - but as we both know you'll ever do that there is no agreement to differ.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31429 on: September 28, 2018, 09:42:57 AM »
AB,

Quote
ignored) that’s stupid. If we “can’t detect anything else", on what possible basis would anyone think that it’s there in any case?
It all depends on what you use as a means of detection.  We can only detect the presence of gravity by what it does.  Similarly with the human soul - it does what pure material entities can't do - which is the capacity to consciously invoke acts of will.

That's a lot of wrong in a short post, but the error we were discussing was your contradictory notion that at the same time we "can’t detect anything else" yet mysteriously you alone it seems can detect the objects of your various superstitious beliefs. Either you can detect them whether directly or indirectly or you can't. You choose.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31430 on: September 28, 2018, 09:48:45 AM »

Everything is effectively and illusion. You and all your feelings and desires and wants, are all electrical impulses. That's all the brain has. There is nothing else but complex electrical impulses. Colour, sound, vision all electrical impulses.
You are the emergent property of this vast set of electrical impulses. When they stop, do cease to exist.
Saying there is nothing else but complex electrical impulses is a positive assertion. Science does not rule out the possibility of there being something  else - it just comes up with explanations for the evidence that it has uncovered thus far. And there are lots of gaps in the explanations as to what the brain interacts with and how it interacts with it to produce conscious awareness and complex thoughts.
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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31431 on: September 28, 2018, 09:49:00 AM »

Everything is effectively and illusion. You and all your feelings and desires and wants, are all electrical impulses. That's all the brain has. There is nothing else but complex electrical impulses. Colour, sound, vision all electrical impulses.
You are the emergent property of this vast set of electrical impulses. When they stop, do cease to exist.
Are you a disciple of NicholasMarks?

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31432 on: September 28, 2018, 09:51:10 AM »
Are you a disciple of NicholasMarks?

God no!

I watched the series 'The Brain' by David Eagleman.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31433 on: September 28, 2018, 09:57:48 AM »
AB,

What you said was, "I will continue to deny any theory which effectively removes…" etc and then you said, "I have not dismissed any scientific findings to my knowledge".

In science, theories are "findings" you banana.
Science does not find that souls or free will do not exist because there is no method to investigate these  - science explains what it has evidence for and leaves gaps for what it can’t explain.

Therefore by continuing to assert a soul or free will in the gaps science leaves, AB has not consistently denied the findings of science entirely as you previously claimed...you banana.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31434 on: September 28, 2018, 10:06:35 AM »
Gabriella,

Quote
Nope - he is saying there is a gap in the explanations that science has provided and he fills it with his evangelism. Whether he gets taken seriously or not is not his problem - his evangelism requires him to pass on the message and that is what he is doing.

Wrong again. He thinks his dismissals of science are factually correct – which he’s entitled to believe of course but assertion and a priori bias means that “what he’s saying” is actually white noise.   

Quote
That sounds like you are agreeing there are gaps in the explanations provided by science.

There are gaps in everything science explains. That’s why people keep doing it. 

Quote
Science has not identified everything the brain interacts with and how it interacts with them to produce conscious awareness, selective perceptions, abstract concepts. My point was that these gaps are where AB introduces his evangelism, so his evangelism isn't torpedoed. Since some people may have a preference for the particular evangelical abstract thoughts that his brain produces to explain the gaps, his evangelism continues.

Wrong again. It’s precisely “torpedoed” when science tells us answer A, and AB tells us that it’s answer B instead. Why? Because A is investigable, tested and verified by inter-subjective experience, whereas B is just words.             

Quote
It is helpful to him because his evangelism isn't torpedoed - you can continue to assert that it is if you want, but I think his evangelism will appeal to some people, even if it doesn't appeal to you, so for him it's apparently worth his while continuing.

Wrong again (see above), and if you think epistemic equivalence between pixies and “god”, “soul” etc is helpful to the person trying to demonstrate the latter then all bets are off.

Quote
I think he thinks there is a possibility his assertions for the gaps in science's explanations will be persuasive to some people, hence he continues to evangelise.

He may think there’s a possibility of that, but the point is that he has no grounds for it if those people are possessed of functioning intellects. 

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I don't think it's a big problem for him.

Clearly. But that he doesn’t realise it’s a problem is itself a problem.

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He is on here to evangelise, and that is what he is doing, so he meets some of his objectives….

In which case he should be in the faith sharing area and not in a discussion area. 

Quote
Of course he would prefer it if people were persuaded, but even if they aren't he has an objective to bear witness about his particular abstract supernatural concepts and he has met that objective, repeatedly.

If by “bear witness” you mean something like, “keep asserting personal explanatory narratives while ignoring or misrepresenting the reasoning and evidence that undoes them” you’re probably right.

Quote
We've had this argument before. "Objectively true" means that there is objective evidence for it i.e. there is a method to investigate and test it. He has presented no objective evidence so what is your evidence that he thinks he has objective as opposed to subjective evidence such as personal testimony about his perceptions of his experiences? What he thinks without objective evidence is the same as saying he believes it based on faith. I see AB as someone who wants to persuade people to accept his testimony.

My evidence that he thinks he has evidence is that he keeps telling us he has evidence! Blimey girl. 

Quote
I didn't imply that religious belief is unalloyed good. I don't even think that it is. I just made a comment about AB's preference for a narrative that a sincerely believing Muslim was deluded. As usual, you are reading your own interpretation into other people's words and getting it wrong.

Yes you did – that’s why you posited one side of the story while ignoring the other side. Did you know that Thalidomide has some positive therapeutic uses? So there you go then.
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31435 on: September 28, 2018, 10:17:46 AM »
Gabriella,

Quote
Science does not find that souls or free will do not exist because there is no method to investigate these  - science explains what it has evidence for and leaves gaps for what it can’t explain.

Sort of. It has gaps in the sense that it doesn’t overreach into making claims of fact that it cannot validate (that’s the territory of the religious), but that’s not to say that it “leaves” them – to the contrary, the reason people do science is to try to remove the gaps. That though has no relevance to AB’s contradictory claims made just a few posts apart – ie, that he “denies any theory that” etc, and that he “doesn’t dismiss the findings of science” respectively.   

Quote
Therefore by continuing to assert a soul or free will in the gaps science leaves, AB has not consistently denied the findings of science entirely as you previously claimed...you banana.

No you banana – he expressly told us that he “denies any theory” etc. You’re making ever more convoluted efforts to try to explain away his mistakes, but even you aren't seriously trying to say that the plain words he used actually meant something else are you?

Are you? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31436 on: September 28, 2018, 10:19:57 AM »
'You banana'?  No, no, no I can't have that.  You 'emergent property' surely?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31437 on: September 28, 2018, 10:24:44 AM »
Gabriella,

Wrong again. He thinks his dismissals of science are factually correct – which he’s entitled to believe of course but assertion and a priori bias means that “what he’s saying” is actually white noise.   

There are gaps in everything science explains. That’s why people keep doing it. 

Wrong again. It’s precisely “torpedoed” when science tells us answer A, and AB tells us that it’s answer B instead. Why? Because A is investigable, tested and verified by inter-subjective experience, whereas B is just words.             

Wrong again (see above), and if you think epistemic equivalence between pixies and “god”, “soul” etc is helpful to the person trying to demonstrate the latter then all bets are off.

He may think there’s a possibility of that, but the point is that he has no grounds for it if those people are possessed of functioning intellects. 

Clearly. But that he doesn’t realise it’s a problem is itself a problem.

In which case he should be in the faith sharing area and not in a discussion area. 

If by “bear witness” you mean something like, “keep asserting personal explanatory narratives while ignoring or misrepresenting the reasoning and evidence that undoes them” you’re probably right.

My evidence that he thinks he has evidence is that he keeps telling us he has evidence! Blimey girl. 

Yes you did – that’s why you posited one side of the story while ignoring the other side. Did you know that Thalidomide has some positive therapeutic uses? So there you go then.
AB’s evangelism consists of providing an explanation for gaps in the science. You need to provide some evidence for your assertion that AB has dismissed the science entirely as opposed to what I think he is doing, which is asserting explanations for gaps in the science. That’s what his evangelism is - he doesn’t offer a scientific method, only personal testimony and perceptions. He has certainly been corrected on some of his statements about what gaps exist, by being provided with the science-based explanations, but there is no finding that rules out the possibility that the brain interacts with a supernatural concept in order for AB to have dismissed that finding.

So AB’d evangelism continues unhampered by whatever science has provisionally found or theorised this far based on the evidence currently available. Whether other people find his evangelism persuasive is for individuals to decide.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 10:33:20 AM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

SteveH

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31438 on: September 28, 2018, 10:30:12 AM »

In science, theories are "findings" you banana.
Not quite. Findings are data discovered by experiment and observation. Theories bind lots of data together into a coherent model, which is confirmed by more discoveries.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31439 on: September 28, 2018, 10:30:44 AM »
he expressly told us that he “denies any theory” etc.
Please to not misquote me by curtailing what I wrote.
To repeat - I will deny any theory which takes away the reality of my freedom to choose.
My ability to make conscious choices can't be denied, but speculative theories can.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31440 on: September 28, 2018, 10:30:49 AM »
Gabriella,

Sort of. It has gaps in the sense that it doesn’t overreach into making claims of fact that it cannot validate (that’s the territory of the religious), but that’s not to say that it “leaves” them – to the contrary, the reason people do science is to try to remove the gaps. That though has no relevance to AB’s contradictory claims made just a few posts apart – ie, that he “denies any theory that” etc, and that he “doesn’t dismiss the findings of science” respectively.   

No you banana – he expressly told us that he “denies any theory” etc. You’re making ever more convoluted efforts to try to explain away his mistakes, but even you aren't seriously trying to say that the plain words he used actually meant something else are you?

Are you?
The plain words that AB actually used appear to mean that he ruled out any theory that positively asserts the brain can never and does not interact with something undefined by science because it appears to be supernatural  - in his evangelism that is a soul or free will or something along those lines. Is there such a positive statement/ finding by science...you banana?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31441 on: September 28, 2018, 11:05:26 AM »
Please to not misquote me by curtailing what I wrote.
To repeat - I will deny any theory which takes away the reality of my freedom to choose.
My ability to make conscious choices can't be denied, but speculative theories can.
It might be helpful if you were to provide one or more of those throries that ypu are denying.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31442 on: September 28, 2018, 11:12:24 AM »

In which case he should be in the faith sharing area and not in a discussion area. 

I am not here to preach to the converted.

My wish is to share the reality of God's love with as many people as possible.
In doing this, I have discovered just how persuasive the forces of evil can be in convincing people that God does not exist.  I can't face up to such forces on my own - I need God's help through prayer and the power of His saving grace.  Sometimes I feel that I have failed and I am tempted to give up, but God calls me (and others) to witness and gives me the strength an courage to pick myself up and carry on.  It is not easy, and I certainly do not do this for an ego trip.

The first step in discovering God's love for us would be to admit the possibility, (and probability) of His existence - hence my posts.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31443 on: September 28, 2018, 11:19:24 AM »
To repeat - I will deny any theory which takes away the reality of my freedom to choose.

Nobody is saying that you don't feel you can make choices though but the problem is that this 'reality' for you is code for some sort of divine agency being involved in choices you make: so in what sense is that 'real'?.

Quote
My ability to make conscious choices can't be denied, but speculative theories can.

Like supernatural agency influencing how our routine biology works: you have a theory for this? If so it seems like pure speculation to me since you can't provide any description of how this works that would permit some sort of investigation.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31444 on: September 28, 2018, 11:26:34 AM »
In doing this, I have discovered just how persuasive the forces of evil can be in convincing people that God does not exist.  I can't face up to such forces on my own - I need God's help through prayer and the power of His saving grace.  Sometimes I feel that I have failed and I am tempted to give up, but God calls me (and others) to witness and gives me the strength an courage to pick myself up and carry on.  It is not easy, and I certainly do not do this for an ego trip.

The first step in discovering God's love for us would be to admit the possibility, (and probability) of His existence - hence my posts.

Even after all this time you aren't getting it, Alan: you see I'm not convinced that God does not exist but, instead, I see no basis to take the claim of God seriously - and nor do I think that I'm being influenced by these 'forces of evil' for the same reason, that they aren't a serious proposition.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31445 on: September 28, 2018, 12:48:18 PM »
Nobody is saying that you don't feel you can make choices though but the problem is that this 'reality' for you is code for some sort of divine agency being involved in choices you make: so in what sense is that 'real'?.

Like supernatural agency influencing how our routine biology works: you have a theory for this? If so it seems like pure speculation to me since you can't provide any description of how this works that would permit some sort of investigation.
Routine biology can't escape the uncontrollable nature of physically predetermined chains of cause and effect.  Our ability to make consciously driven choices is evidence for agency outside the predetermined nature of material reactions.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31446 on: September 28, 2018, 01:28:28 PM »
I do not deny the findings of cognitive science...

...<distraction strawman deleted for clarity >


Eh ?  You have very short memory.  Here you are in #31408 :

"I will continue to deny any theory which effectively removes the reality that we are capable of driving our own thoughts and invoking conscious choices.  Not spookiness, just demonstrable reality."

Here you are denying the findings of cognitive science. It is cognitive science amongst others that has revealed that consciousness is not the driving force of choice or indeed experience, it is more like a memory of what just happened.  It is cognitive science that has measured this phenomenon to around 400 ms.  It is neuroscience that has measured the speed of neural transmission at around 100m/s.  These are not speculations derived from science, they are the findings.

You do yourself no credit by being a science denier, and even less by denying that you are a science-denier.  Just be honest with yourself and with other people.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31447 on: September 28, 2018, 01:39:20 PM »
AB's supporting evidence appears to be his perceptions of his personal experiences while reading scripture and praying. It doesn't appear that he needs to persuade himself - his brain believes the narrative it produces. My brain also believes the narratives it produces - I don't need to persuade myself. I don't expect anyone else to believe the narratives my brain produces if I can't produce objective evidence for those narratives.

Actually, after the Brexit debates and Trump's continuous brays of "fake news" I don't expect people to believe the narratives even if I did manage to produce objective evidence. 

On another thread, I was questioning the research evidence and conclusions that people's experiences show that physiologically they can't lose weight and keep it off by restricting their calories, given there are other studies to show that other people's experiences are that they can lose weight and keep it off by restricting their calories to 810 calories a day and getting psychological support. So I am undecided about what I believe on that issue. But I prefer the narrative that you can lose weight by restricting calories, based on my personal experience.

Thanks for the endorsement, Gabriella, you're right, at least I'm aware in similar circumstances.

As for Trump I'm neither for or against, he's certainly shaking the system and providing lots of surprises, almost daily.

The dieting thing like you can dismiss whatever your birth weight was when jumping on the scales etc, it's pretty obvious if you eat less you lose weight, it's making yourself eat less that has to be the problem.

Regards ippy

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31448 on: September 28, 2018, 03:01:09 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
AB’s evangelism consists of providing an explanation for gaps in the science. You need to provide some evidence for your assertion that AB has dismissed the science entirely as opposed to what I think he is doing, which is asserting explanations for gaps in the science. That’s what his evangelism is - he doesn’t offer a scientific method, only personal testimony and perceptions. He has certainly been corrected on some of his statements about what gaps exist, by being provided with the science-based explanations, but there is no finding that rules out the possibility that the brain interacts with a supernatural concept in order for AB to have dismissed that finding.

So AB’d evangelism continues unhampered by whatever science has provisionally found or theorised this far based on the evidence currently available. Whether other people find his evangelism persuasive is for individuals to decide.

AB: "I will continue to deny any theory which effectively removes the reality that...etc" (Reply 31408).

How much more evidence would you like? Notice that he doesn't say, "I will look for gaps in the scientific theories and insert my claims of fact into those gaps" or similar. To the contrary, he simply denies "any theory" that contradicts his faith beliefs full stop. QED
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #31449 on: September 28, 2018, 03:04:31 PM »
Steve H,

Quote
Not quite. Findings are data discovered by experiment and observation. Theories bind lots of data together into a coherent model, which is confirmed by more discoveries.

Yes quite. Theories are findings of science; not all findings of science are theories. Lions are cats; not all cats are lions. AB denied "any theory that..." etc, which means necessarily that he dismisses findings of science. That science also has findings that aren't theories is irrelevant.   
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God