Searching for GOD...

[Enki]

This quote just identifies correlation of physical brain activity which is apparently associated with consciously involved choice.  It in no way defines what invokes the choice.

In which case, and following your logic, even if we found this 'soul' of yours, the same would apply. All we could possibly identify would be correlation of this'soul' with decision making.

[Enki]

Yes, the brain is an amazing biological machine, and the fact that it is all generated from the data held in a microscopic DNA molecule is truly mind blowing.

But an entirely material brain is in essence mechanistic - driven by physical reactions to previous physical events.   No room for consciously driven choices - just inevitable reactions defined by the laws of physics - not you.  But hey - I can snap my fingers whenever I choose to.  And at the same time I can stick out my tongue and jump up and down on one leg, just because I want to.  Isn't it truly amazing what the laws of physics make me do!

Are you seriously suggesting that this 'soul' of yours would be responsible for the actions you have described? Isn't it truly amazing what this 'soul' can make me do!  I'll stick with my mind, thank you. At least I know it is fully capable of imagining all sorts of silly things.

[Sebastian Toe]

I am not here to preach to the converted.

My wish is to share the reality of God's love with as many people as possible.
In doing this, I have discovered just how persuasive the forces of evil can be in convincing people that God does not exist.  I can't face up to such forces on my own -

Just what exactly are "the forces of evil"?
And in what way are they convincing people?

[SusanDoris]

Just what exactly are "the forces of evil"?
And in what way are they convincing people?

I too await the answer with interest, but not a lot of hope of a sensible one, I'm afraid.

[Alan Burns]

That desire to snap your fingers came from somewhere; otherwise it would be random. That desire to jump up and down came from somewhere; otherwise it would be random.  This is the signature of cause and effect.  That consciousness comes from somewhere - it is derived from preconscious states of mind, so is not, in a true and precise sense, the driver of choice, but merely the reporting of it.

So do you claim that any silly action I consciously choose to do is derived from preconscious states of mind?  - Which would mean that it was not my conscious choice, but just the inevitable consequence of the predetermined physical reactions occurring in my brain cells.

I am fully aware that we have broached this subject several times before, but I find it increasingly bizarre that you continue to deny that we have the freedom to choose such actions as they are just the inevitable result of physical reactions.   Yes all these silly actions come from somewhere and are the end result of cause and effect, but there has to be an instigating action to set off the physical chains of cause and effect to bring about the action.  The instigating action is certainly not a random event.  The only other option in a materialistic scenario is that there was no definable instigating action and everything is just an inevitable consequence to previous events.  The only realistic alternative is that these actions are instigated by a consciously driven act of will, but such an event is not a feasible option in the physically driven materialistic scenario.  So what enables our conscious awareness to instigate an act of will?  It all depends on what constitutes our conscious awareness, because whatever it is must have the power to instigate actions in our physical brain and not just be part of the mechanistic chains of endless cause and effect, and over which there is no control other than the laws of physics.

[Alan Burns]

Just what exactly are "the forces of evil"?
And in what way are they convincing people?

The forces of evil are evident by what they do - which is to tempt us into thinking such things as the following:
There is no such thing as evil
There is no right or wrong
There is no God
There is no evil one
There is no such thing as freewill
There is no heaven or hell
There are no souls

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The forces of evil are evident by what they do - which is to tempt us into thinking such things as the following:
There is no such thing as evil
There is no right or wrong
There is no God
There is no evil one
There is no such thing as freewill
There is no heaven or hell
There are no souls

"Forces of evil" eh? Well...(steps slowly away)...if you say so old son...(looks anxiously at the door)...Erm, (sotto voce)..."Nurse!...I say, nurse!...

It's an odd behaviour the attributing of agency to impersonal phenomena. Small children do it too - "that branch hit me" etc – but it's seen less often in adults. Does it not occur to you that your attribution "forces of evil" is actually just a convenient place marker for, "here are some arguments I cannot refute so I have to call them something bad in order to continue my evasion of them"? Seriously though?

Anyway, should I take your silence on the matter to mean that you do in fact agree with my deepest perception that storks deliver babies?

You do? Good man.     

[Gordon]

The forces of evil are evident by what they do - which is to tempt us into thinking such things as the following:
There is no such thing as evil
There is no right or wrong
There is no God
There is no evil one
There is no such thing as freewill
There is no heaven or hell
There are no souls

If so then these 'forces of evil' are thinking more clearly than you, Alan: so maybe not so 'evil' after all.

[SusanDoris]

The forces of evil are evident by what they do - which is to tempt us into thinking such things as the following:
There is no such thing as evil

Correct. There is a known range of human behaviours which goes from what humans label as the very worst via those in the large middle range, to  the very best, using a multitude of different adjectives.

There is no right or wrong

correct, there is no OBJECTIVE right or wrong.

There is no God

Correct as far as I'm concerned. [There is zero evidence for such a thing, but a teeny-weeny, microscopic gap is always left by those with functioning intellects in case, before this galaxy disintegrates, the sun is no more than a white dwarf or something and the planets have long since melted or something,  one such oddity might appear.

There is no evil one

There are plenty of people who do things we label evil, but no such entity.

There is no such thing as freewill

This one has been explained to you so often, I am surprised you mention it again.

There is no heaven or hell

correct. The universe and what it consists of is well known now and nowhere is there any place, condition or planet which can be identified as  such. . All such states of being are IMAGINED by humans.

There are no souls

We humans have many different aspects to our whole person and one such aspect is sometimes called a soul. There is no entity as such called a soul.

[Alan Burns]

The last three replies show just how successfully the forces of evil are working.
May God help us all.

[Enki]

The forces of evil are evident by what they do - which is to tempt us into thinking such things as the following:
There is no such thing as evil
There is no right or wrong
There is no God
There is no evil one
There is no such thing as freewill
There is no heaven or hell
There are no souls

I think there are actions that are profoundly against my sense of morality which could be classed as evil and people whose actions I find particularly abhorrent who could be classed as evil. I prefer not to use the word 'evil' however because of its supernatural connotations, preferring the word 'wicked' which for me gives a better sense of  the harm associated with the above.

I think that right and wrong are essentially human constructions.

I have never said that there is no God (or gods). I simply have no evidence or reason to believe in Him/them.

I haver never said that there is no evil one(or evil them). I simply say that I have no evidence or reason to believe in one(or them).

My idea of freewill is different to yours. I have no problem in saying that I think we make free choices, and that the reasons for our actions lie in the activity within our brain.

I do not say there is no heaven or hell, but I see no reason or evidence to believe in an afterlife. Hence the idea of heaven or hell is without significance to me.

I do not say there are no souls. I simply say that I have no evidence or reason to believe in them.

Finally, I find no evidence or reason to think that your 'assumed' forces of evil make people think such things. Hence I find your whole set of statements here to be rather ridiculous, of no particular significance to me and frankly unpleasant, insulting and lacking the respect that one human being should have(in my morality) towards another.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The last three replies show just how successfully the forces of evil are working.
May God help us all.

No they don't. What they actually show is the robustness of the arguments that undo you because they reduce you to throwing meaningless insults at them in the hope they'll go away.

[Gordon]

The last three replies show just how successfully the forces of evil are working.
May God help us all.

I suspect, Alan, that you've morphed into Catweazle.

[Sebastian Toe]

I asked,
Just what exactly are "the forces of evil"?
And in what way are they convincing people?

and you replied,

The forces of evil are evident by what they do - which is to tempt us into thinking such things as the following:
There is no such thing as evil
There is no right or wrong
There is no God
There is no evil one
There is no such thing as freewill
There is no heaven or hell
There are no souls

Now the 'forces of evil' may well be evident to you, by what you say they do.
However you have not defined what those 'forces of evil' are, and by your own past arguments regarding 'definitions' or lack of them, I can only assume that by your inability to provide one, that those 'forces of evil' cannot possibly exist!

[Sebastian Toe]

I asked,
Just what exactly are "the forces of evil"?
And in what way are they convincing people?

and you replied,

The forces of evil are evident by what they do - which is to tempt us into thinking such things as the following:
There is no such thing as evil
There is no right or wrong
There is no God
There is no evil one
There is no such thing as freewill
There is no heaven or hell
There are no souls

The 'forces of evil' may well be' tempting' people to do those things in your eyes.

However you have not defined what the mechanics used by the 'forces of evil' to do the 'tempting', and yet again by your own past arguments regarding 'definitions' or lack of them, I can only assume that by your inability to provide one, that those 'forces of evil' cannot possibly be 'tempting' anyone!

[SteveH]

Of course there's objective right and wrong. If there isn't, how can we condemn the Nazis, or Brady and Hindley?

[Sebastian Toe]

Of course there's objective right and wrong. If there isn't, how can we condemn the Nazis, or Brady and Hindley?

Can of worms opened and splilled on floor.
That subject needs a seperate place IMO otherwise a great sidetracking will ensue!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Steve H,

Of course there's objective right and wrong. If there isn't, how can we condemn the Nazis, or Brady and Hindley?

Did you mean to say that?

[Sebastian Toe]

DSIDTY!

[torridon]

So do you claim that any silly action I consciously choose to do is derived from preconscious states of mind?  - Which would mean that it was not my conscious choice, but just the inevitable consequence of the predetermined physical reactions occurring in my brain cells.

Broadly correct.  That is what the 'pre' in preconscious means;   all conscious experience is subject to a small time lag, we never actually 'live' in the moment.  Conscious experience is a sophisticated mental construction derived from more primal states of mind, and with neural transmission being very slow, compared to unobstructed nerve impulses, for example, it takes a certain amount of time to synthesise the 'final cut', which is what we remember as our experience of reality.

[SteveH]

Steve H,

Did you mean to say that?

Yes. Is this a roundabout way of having a pop at my signature?

[SteveH]

DSIDTY!

?

[Sebastian Toe]

?

Don't say I didn't tell you!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Steve H,

Yes. Is this a roundabout way of having a pop at my signature?

What signature?

Anyway, do you carve out your remarkable claim just for morality or do you claim objectivity too for other fields of judgment - artistic merit, language, that kind of thing? What SI units of moral/immoral do you apply, and how do you test for them?

[torridon]

The forces of evil are evident by what they do - which is to tempt us into thinking such things as the following:
There is no such thing as evil
There is no right or wrong
There is no God
There is no evil one
There is no such thing as freewill
There is no heaven or hell
There are no souls

Mostly positive claims, the burden of proof for them lies with the claimer.  As far as I am concerned there are no souls, gods, evil ones, no heaven or hell as we don't have any evidence for any of these things.  They are just unsupported bald assertions with an added frisson of prejudical language calculated to induce shame in people who try to remain true to principled thinking.