Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

But I do know that my freedom to make consciously driven choices can't possibly be driven from predetermined physical reactions, because such physically controlled activity could not reach such an abstract conclusion.

You don't appear to know anything of the sort. All you have offered is baseless assertions, blind faith, inaccurate and emotive language, dishonest claims about our experience being evidence, and personal incredulity. What's more you continually run away from addressing the logic that tells us that your own ideas are self-contradictory.

I am in control...

Which isn't the issue. The question is about what you are and how you make choices.

...and the ultimate source of this control can't be derived from uncontrollable physical reactions.

So you keep on asserting without any hint of reasoning or evidence.

Apologies for having to repeat this so often, but it is my consciously driven freedom which is responsible.

You are under no obligation to keep on making a fool of yourself like this, if you don't want to. You could admit that you have nothing but faith or you could actually try to provide some reasoning or evidence to support your assertions or even address the reasoning that tells us you are wrong about the nature of freedom.

[torridon]

I do not know.

But I do know that my freedom to make consciously driven choices can't possibly be driven from predetermined physical reactions, because such physically controlled activity could not reach such an abstract conclusion.  I am in control, and the ultimate source of this control can't be derived from uncontrollable physical reactions.

Apologies for having to repeat this so often, but it is my consciously driven freedom which is responsible.

Back to front thinking.

We don't do things because we are free to, we do them because we want to.  'Freedom' is only relevant in so much as we are not impeded in getting what we want.  And 'what we want' is not something that we can choose; it is effectively a given.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Me (Reply 36358 – emphasis added):

I was listening to someone earlier on the radio talking about Brexit, the rise of populism etc. She was saying that essentially the fault line is between the emotional and the rational. The rationalist thinks that all he needs to do is to explain to the emotionalist why he’s wrong and he’ll change his mind; the emotionalist on the other hand is certain he’s right so will just repeat endlessly his convictions regardless of the quality of the arguments that falsify him. Worse still, the emotionalist will then conclude that the reason his mind hasn’t been changed is the failure of the falsifying arguments rather than the intractability of his convictions, so his convictions are thereby are reinforced.

AB is an emotionalist. That’s all he has. He know he’s right because he knows he’s right and that’s the beginning and end of it.  No matter that when he tries to play on the turf of the rationalist by attempting arguments to support him he always loses, he’ll just eructate again and again the same conviction (“the fact that you can compose this means that….” etc) even though there’s no escaping the logical impossibility of his claims.

That’s the problem here: his position is built on sand, but when you explain why it’s built on sand in his head he processes the arguments as concrete to reinforce the foundations. For the rest of us it’s a futile death spiral of lose lose.

     

You (Reply 36373):
 

But I do know that my freedom to make consciously driven choices can't possibly be driven from predetermined physical reactions, because such physically controlled activity could not reach such an abstract conclusion.  I am in control, and the ultimate source of this control can't be derived from uncontrollable physical reactions.

QED

Apologies for having to repeat this so often, but it is my consciously driven freedom which is responsible.

You should apologise because endless repetition of the same wrongheadedness does not make it less wrongheaded. What you should do is (finally) to engage with the problem that your version of “free” will gives you of logical impossibility without invoking magic to get you off the hook. 

[Walter]

Dear Anal

please could you ask your god to fix my spine . Currently I can only walk about 100 meters then I have to stop to recover from the pain and the jellified legs before I can carry on.
This is not a joke, this is my reality. And I'm fucking sick of it 
Can He/you help?
If not please give reasons
If yes , happy days .
 I've  learnt from reading your posts that I'm in with a chance , please don't let me down.

thanks
Walter

[Alan Burns]

Dear Anal

please could you ask your god to fix my spine . Currently I can only walk about 100 meters then I have to stop to recover from the pain and the jellified legs before I can carry on.
This is not a joke, this is my reality. And I'm fucking sick of it 
Can He/you help?
If not please give reasons
If yes , happy days .
 I've  learnt from reading your posts that I'm in with a chance , please don't let me down.

thanks
Walter

Will do Walter.
From now on you are on my prayer list.

[Walter]

Will do Walter.
From now on you are on my prayer list.

wow thanks!

so what? results in 2, 3 5, days ? I'm so excited ,

I will let you know when I'm back to how  was before

thank you so much , you have been a pillar of hope  AB , don't let me down or we might have words !!!!!

[SusanDoris]

Walter

I am sorry to hear about the problems with walking, especially as you had both hips replaced not so long ago. Have you had follow-up consultations and/or physio?

[Walter]

Walter

I am sorry to hear about the problems with walking, especially as you had both hips replaced not so long ago. Have you had follow-up consultations and/or physio?

SD

good morning, actually I had only one hip done and that works really well. The problem I have is a sort of twist in the lumbar region of my spine as a result of a motorbike accident some years ago which left me with a broken back and its all catching up with me now as I get older , dammit!

thanks for asking though x

[jeremyp]

Having spent most of my working life in software development, I know precisely what is involved with generating the human mimicking processes used in systems such as Elexa.

But not how to spell "Alexa".

Self awareness does not emerge from silicon chips or micro circuits which are merely gateways for electric currents used to simulate what the developers intended. 

How do you know it doesn't?

To be clear, I don't think any current electronic gizmo like Alexa or Siri has self awareness, but how would you know if an electronic device did acquire it?

How do you know that humans other than yourself have self awareness? After all, if you look in their heads it's all just electronic gates but made of organic material rather than silicon.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Walter,

please could you ask your god to fix my spine . Currently I can only walk about 100 meters then I have to stop to recover from the pain and the jellified legs before I can carry on.
This is not a joke, this is my reality. And I'm fucking sick of it 
Can He/you help?
If not please give reasons
If yes , happy days .
 I've  learnt from reading your posts that I'm in with a chance , please don't let me down.

Ooh, be careful old son. What if old “crashes and” Burns has backed the wrong horse and the real god (Poseidon for example) is as petty and insecure as his one and so will get all crotchety with you for turning your back on his watery, trident-wielding wonderfulness? 

Me, I’m taking no chances – don’t genuflect to any of them and none of them can get upset with me for picking a wrong ‘un.

Sorry to her about your back by the way. I hope the medics who actually know something these things it can provide some respite for you. 

[Walter]

Walter,

Ooh, be careful old son. What if old “crashes and” Burns has backed the wrong horse and the real god (Poseidon for example) is as petty and insecure as his one and so will get all crotchety with you for turning your back on his watery, trident-wielding wonderfulness? 

Me, I’m taking no chances – don’t genuflect to any of them and none of them can get upset with me for picking a wrong ‘un.

Sorry to her about your back by the way. I hope the medics who actually know something these things it can provide some respite for you.

Blue
I think it could be the other way round ?
The gods backed the wrong horse when they were placing bets on me .
A very strong start but stumbled mid way throught the race only to be overtaken by my opponents with the finish line in sight with only disappointment and a couldn't care less attitude about my final placing
So I fear nothing and no one now and put my faith in a neuro surgeon who tells me he can (probably) improve my condition but I could be out of action for 3 months and that's no good to me with my lifestyle 😳

[Outrider]

Having spent most of my working life in software development, I know precisely what is involved with generating the human mimicking processes used in systems such as Elexa.

Yet, apparently, you don't have an understanding of what is involved in generating the human process in the first place.

Self awareness does not emerge from silicon chips or micro circuits which are merely gateways for electric currents used to simulate what the developers intended.

Neurons are merely gateways for electric currents used to simulate whatever evolution has found most fit...

Human self awareness invokes choices which are not pre programmed, but driven by human will rather than by physically predefined endless chains of cause and effect.

Again, how do you demonstrate that the 'choices', are independent of the physical brain activity? Or how the brain activity is independent of the prior events?  And if it is independent of what has gone before, how is it 'will'?

O.

[ippy]

Hello ippy,

I think I see what you're saying - it's not that his mind works differently, it's indoctrination that's the problem.  Yes, entirely possible.  It's possible I'm indoctrinated into my own views, though they've changed so much over time with education and experience that I'd prefer to doubt that!  That's sort of why I asked about counterarguments to Paine's points so I could make a judgement about whether I was biased.  There don't appear to be any though, so I'm happy to continue thinking he's right   

As for my reference to leaving the EU: all I've heard for the last 3 years is vague appeals to emotion in favour of it, while the evidence says all of us, except a few disaster capitalists and those so rich they wouldn't suffer whatever happened, will be worse off in every way I can think of.  I know you are in favour of the UK leaving the EU and I profoundly disagree with you.  I've not heard a rational, well-informed argument in favour of leaving but I would be willing to listen.  On the appropriate thread, obviously. 

Have a nice weekend all, I don't expect to be able to access the site again until Monday.

Looking at Alan's contributions to this marathon thread it puts me in mind of one of Sam Harris's parallels where we all pay a price for some of the things we say such as if someone were to tell you all we need is a couple of crackers, a glass of wine and we'll be seeing Elvis, yet you if call the same thing religion for some reason? Puzzles me? (crackers, Sam's an American).

So many of the things poor old Alan keeps on letting himself to continually get fried about and he seems totally unable to retrieve himself from this self imposed trap, it's the inability to learn anything makes it seem from the tidal wave of mostly rational things put to him. As I see his posts Alan's collection of answers wouldn't differ by much more than the odd word or two if they were all being vetted by a few influential R C Cardinals.

I note your reff to the EU in your post and if your major source of news and general information about brexit was the BBC I would recommend you to go into YouTube and look for Lord Pearson speaking about the BBC and brexit this was about a couple of months back.

Lord Pearson, hired an independent survey company I think 'Civas', they did a survey for him specifically the BBC about the amount of presentation the made about the leave side of the brexit argument.

I would have thought the presentation of the leave side would have been about say 30% or thereabouts because I have noticed how one sided they the BBC are about brexit, the BBC's mainly for remain but no it wasn't 30% out of their whole output from the referendum day until about the time he spoke in the HOL it was a staggering 3.2%, now that's bias with a capital B in my book.

If the BBC is your major source of information about brexit it's no small wonder you've not heard, as you call it, a rational argument for leaving.
 
You will be able to hear the details and pick them out if you wish from Lord Pearson speaking on YouTube as I've said.

I'll leave it with you and I'm just a profoundly a leaver as you are a remainer, we all, leave or remain, seem to be the same on that score that's why I think the only way out was the referendum.

Regards, ippy.
 

[SusanDoris]

Ippy

And why do you accept this Lord somebody's opinion as being correct, when you do not know how much bias there is in it? No answer required.

If, however, you can state one solid reason why we should all, remainers and leavers alike, absolutely trust, please state it.

[ippy]

Ippy

And why do you accept this Lord somebody's opinion as being correct, when you do not know how much bias there is in it? No answer required.

If, however, you can state one solid reason why we should all, remainers and leavers alike, absolutely trust, please state it.

Sovereignty, is at the top of my list among several other, I think very good solid reasons why we the UK should leaving.

I think for various reasons family and friends etc we're all set with our decisions I won't be altering my wish to leave the EU decision and as I've said from my own experience everybody seems to be wearing their tin hats ready for battle.

I really do think the'll be a lot of unpleasant trouble if remainers get anywhere near to  frustrating the referendum winning leave vote I sincerely hope not.

I don't see any point in discussing brexit one way or another, will you be changing your pov, I doubt it well nor will I.

Kind regards ippy     

 

[bluehillside Retd.]

ippy,

Sovereignty, is at the top of my list among several other, I think very good solid reasons why we the UK should leaving.

I think for various reasons family and friends etc we're all set with our decisions I won't be altering my wish to leave the EU decision and as I've said from my own experience everybody seems to be wearing their tin hats ready for battle.

I really do think the'll be a lot of unpleasant trouble if remainers get anywhere near to  frustrating the referendum winning leave vote I sincerely hope not.

I don't see any point in discussing brexit one way or another, will you be changing your pov, I doubt it well nor will I.

We always have been sovereign (that's why EU Member States have the veto), but in any case this should be on the Brexit discussion.

[Gordon]

Moderator:

Regarding the minor and brief derail into matters involving Brexit in recent posts in this thread - can we please post any Brexit related stuff in the dedicated (and quite busy) Brexit thread, and in this one return to the seemingly never-ending search for 'God'.

[Roses]

If god exists one wonders why it is so hard to find!

[Alan Burns]

If god exists one wonders why it is so hard to find!

"Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened unto you"

It is never too late to cast aside all your doubts and falsifiable reasons and renew your search for the truth, because the truth will indeed set you free.

[jeremyp]

"Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened unto you"

I sought and I did not find. I knocked and there was nobody at home.

It is never too late to cast aside all your doubts

Doubt is what makes me human. Doubt gives me strength. doubt is what makes me check my workings and put my seatbelt on.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

"Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened unto you"

So far at least, you’ve never provided even one good reason to think that knocking at your choice of “doors” would be more successful than knocking at any of the countless alternatives, or indeed at not knocking at all and trying instead reason and evidence as the more reliable route to truth.

It is never too late to cast aside all your doubts…

If you have any pretence to finding truths, then doubt is essential to the process. The moment you “cast aside all your doubts” is the moment you close the door to ever revising and improving your beliefs. That’s your problem: you had some very, very bad ideas some 40 years ago and allowed them to ossify into the tottering tower of sand-built piffle that’s your faith.   

…and falsifiable reasons…

If you think your interlocutors have “falsifiable reasons” why on earth have you never even attempted to falsify them? Surely rather than just assert the same unqualified faith positions to which you’re emotional wedded it would be better to find a falsifying argument wouldn't it? Wouldn’t it? 

…and renew your search for the truth,…

That’s just what people versed in reason are attempting to do. You should join us.

...because the truth will indeed set you free.

That may indeed be true. Why not then finally abandon your blind faith beliefs and join the search for truth? Who knows, you might finally learn something.

[Stranger]

"Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened unto you"

Except you won't.

It is never too late to cast aside all your doubts...

So what the first statement really says is "if you try really, really hard to believe, and if you succeed, then you'll be convinced!"

[Roses]

"Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened unto you"

It is never too late to cast aside all your doubts and falsifiable reasons and renew your search for the truth, because the truth will indeed set you free.

It was never opened for me! You believe you have the elusive 'truth', but you have never offered any verifiable evidence to support your take on it. 

[Outrider]

"Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened unto you"

Why is the door closed in the first place?

[/i][/b]It is never too late to cast aside all your doubts and falsifiable reasons and renew your search for the truth, because the truth will indeed set you free.

I'm not sure that casting aside doubt is ever a good idea - Donald Trump is a man that doesn't bother to spend time on doubt, as an example.  As for discarding falsifiable reasons, if I don't have those then I don't have 'truth' I have 'assertion'.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Why is the door closed in the first place?

I'm not sure that casting aside doubt is ever a good idea - Donald Trump is a man that doesn't bother to spend time on doubt, as an example.  As for discarding falsifiable reasons, if I don't have those then I don't have 'truth' I have 'assertion'.

O.

You (and others) appear put a lot of faith in your ability to make logical deductions and conclusions based upon human scientific investigation to date.

I put my faith in the evidence of human scientific investigation to date combined with discernment of divine revelations backed up by many human witness stories (including mine) to the many and varied ways God can intercede with our earthly lives.  I find no conflict, just amazing confirmatory experiences with this faith view.