Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3734161 times)

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38700 on: February 25, 2020, 11:09:41 AM »
It is your notion of free will which contradicts the concept of freedom to choose.
You claim that a choice is entirely dictated by past events - in which case it has to be a reaction.  Our freedom would then be likened to a likened to a roller coaster ride with no choice over the direction our lives take.

First, this is an argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy.

As if we hadn't gone over this countless time before: you have never produced any hint of reasoning that tells us that our "free" choices cannot also be reactions. Your roller coaster analogy is also absurd because nobody is suggesting that we don't have choices (and please spare us the idiocy of arguing about the meaning of the word "choice", yet again) or that we are unable to do what we want.

I pointed out two major logical blunders at the heart of your claims in #38657 and you've just ignored them. Until and unless you face up to the actual logical objections that I and others have put to you, any claim you make to be using logic is just absurd.

Totally ignoring the counterarguments and just robotically repeating your same old script is the action of a petulant child, not an intelligent adult trying make a serious case. I am genuinely at a loss to understand how you think your behaviour is achieving anything here other than making you and your faith look absurd.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14481
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38701 on: February 25, 2020, 11:15:24 AM »
It is your notion of free will which contradicts the concept of freedom to choose.

It does, but that's not sufficient grounds to dismiss it - that you are uncomfortable with the implications of the conclusion is motivation to revisit the argument, but it's not justification from presuming that it's wrong.

Quote
You claim that a choice is entirely dictated by past events - in which case it has to be a reaction.  Our freedom would then be likened to a likened to a roller coaster ride with no choice over the direction our lives take.

That all rather depends on how you choose to interpret what 'you' are - you are an integral part of that process.  If you put someone else on a roller-coaster, the roller-coaster does exactly the same route, it's fixed to those rails.  If you replace you in life with someone else, you aren't just changing the senses that are experiencing the ride, you change the rails, too.  We are important, we are unique, each of us in a given life does something a little different to what someone else would do, we don't lose anything when we accept that we are a deterministic element of reality, because we never had that 'freedom' to lose; we just grow in our understanding of what life is, how remarkable it is to be a self-aware consciousness in a marvellous reality.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38702 on: February 25, 2020, 12:01:41 PM »
It's not a presumption, it's a conclusion from the available evidence.  We can see the interactions between the physical world and our sensory organs, between our sensory organs and our brains, between our brains and the decision making processes, and between the decision making process and the subsequent awareness of the conclusion.  We don't see anything apparently 'spontaneous' in there that would be the impact of something unknown influencing the process from a non-physical, undetected source.  We therefore conclude, based on the evidence, that consciousness is a manifestation of physical activity in the brain - it's a conclusion after the facts, not a presumption held in spite or incidental of them.

But if the only evidence you allow to be considered is based upon what we consciously perceive from material behaviour and the concept of time related cause and effect, you will inevitably come to the conclusion that a choice must be a consequence of reactions to past events.  The fact that we are unable to physically detect any other influencing factors does not mean that they do not exist - just that they are beyond the scope of what we can detect through our physical senses and man made equipment.  However there is overwhelming evidence in mankind's unique creative and imaginative capabilities which appear to indicate the presence of free will.  The fact that we are able to conceive the concept of free will is in itself an indication that there is evidence of its existence.  To simply claim that it is a logical impossibility is an easy option based upon a our limited knowledge.  The reality may be far, far different.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38703 on: February 25, 2020, 12:16:33 PM »
But if the only evidence you allow to be considered is based upon what we consciously perceive from material behaviour and the concept of time related cause and effect, you will inevitably come to the conclusion that a choice must be a consequence of reactions to past events.  The fact that we are unable to physically detect any other influencing factors does not mean that they do not exist - just that they are beyond the scope of what we can detect through our physical senses and man made equipment.  However there is overwhelming evidence in mankind's unique creative and imaginative capabilities which appear to indicate the presence of free will.  The fact that we are able to conceive the concept of free will is in itself an indication that there is evidence of its existence.  To simply claim that it is a logical impossibility is an easy option based upon a our limited knowledge.  The reality may be far, far different.

I'll give you Alan, your posts never stop being jaw droppingly ridiculous.

You're stating that you know things that actually can't be known. You convey as much in almost every other post you make on this thread?   

Surly you must sometimes think to yourself, 'maybe I was indoctrinated'?

Commiserations Alan, ippy.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38704 on: February 25, 2020, 12:20:15 PM »
AB,

First, why have you just ignored being corrected on your flat out lie that your claims of the supernatural had been “well established”? You’ve been asked over and over again to make a logically coherent argument that would establish that, but instead you’ve either just asserted it to be so or you’ve tried argument but always – and I mean always – collapsed into one or more of various fallacies when you’ve attempted it.

This behaviour “establishes” nothing at all – rather it just confirms that you have no sound reasons to justify your faith beliefs, and so there’s no good reason to take the claims seriously.   

Quote
You call it magic.  I call it the supernatural power of the soul.

And someone else might call it 7t9678jjo887y. They’re all meaningless white noise though – epistemically identical and worthless for explanatory purposes.

Quote
But I think we both agree that without it, human free will can only be an illusion, not a reality.

No we don’t. As I keep explaining and you keep ignoring, “free” will as you would like it to be functions as a placemarker, a “good enough for practical purposes”, experiential truth but has no explanatory value because it collapses for that purpose immediately you actually think about it. It’s “true” in just the same way that “I touch the keyboard” is true – a useful fiction (or “illusion” as you put it) but nothing more.

Now if nonetheless you think that’s wrong, here’s you opportunity after all your thousands of timewasting assertions and fallacies actually to make a coherent argument to explain WHY it’s wrong.

What’s stopping you?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38705 on: February 25, 2020, 12:29:33 PM »
But if the only evidence you allow to be considered is based upon what we consciously perceive from material behaviour and the concept of time related cause and effect, you will inevitably come to the conclusion that a choice must be a consequence of reactions to past events.  The fact that we are unable to physically detect any other influencing factors does not mean that they do not exist - just that they are beyond the scope of what we can detect through our physical senses and man made equipment.  However there is overwhelming evidence in mankind's unique creative and imaginative capabilities which appear to indicate the presence of free will.  The fact that we are able to conceive the concept of free will is in itself an indication that there is evidence of its existence.  To simply claim that it is a logical impossibility is an easy option based upon a our limited knowledge.  The reality may be far, far different.

Nice to see the NPF get a run out: you've been neglecting that one of late.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38706 on: February 25, 2020, 12:35:31 PM »
AB,

Quote
But if the only evidence you allow to be considered is based upon what we consciously perceive from material behaviour and the concept of time related cause and effect, you will inevitably come to the conclusion that a choice must be a consequence of reactions to past events.

No, the only evidence anyone can consider is that which satisfies the basic criteria for being evidence in the first place – ie, it must me investigable, testable, measurable etc. Unqualified assertions, wishful thinking, logical gibberish etc on the other hand can’t be evidence at all. That’s your problem remember?

Quote
The fact that we are unable to physically detect any other influencing factors does not mean that they do not exist - just that they are beyond the scope of what we can detect through our physical senses and man made equipment.

How is it that after all this time you still don’t understand how the burden of proof principle works? That’s right – not being able to detect something doesn’t mean that it necessarily doesn’t exist, but nor does it tell you anything about whether it does exist. You’ve had Russell’s teapot explained to you many times – why have you just fallen into exactly the same mistake again? 

Quote
However there is overwhelming evidence in mankind's unique creative and imaginative capabilities which appear to indicate the presence of free will.

Bullishit. If you seriously think there’s “overwhelming evidence” for that why are you unable to produce even the tiniest scrap of it?

Quote
The fact that we are able to conceive the concept of free will is in itself an indication that there is evidence of its existence.

Non sequitur and circular reasoning – more basic errors in thinking.

Quote
To simply claim that it is a logical impossibility is an easy option based upon a our limited knowledge.

No it isn’t – it’s based on very simple and compelling logic. LOGICALLY an event must occur either deterministically or randomly – claiming magic/miracles as your way out is the abandonment of logic, not a different logic.     

Quote
The reality may be far, far different.

Anything “may be far, far different”. No-one disputes that. Your huge problem though is to find a way from a “may be” to an “is”. You’ve been told countless times that you have all your work ahead of you still to find a way from the possible to the probable, but instead of doing that you just post a straw man and hope no-one notices.

Why is that?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38707 on: February 25, 2020, 12:40:56 PM »
But if the only evidence you allow to be considered is based upon what we consciously perceive from material behaviour and the concept of time related cause and effect, you will inevitably come to the conclusion that a choice must be a consequence of reactions to past events.

What do you actually hope to achieve? Do you think that if you repeat this idiocy enough times everybody will magically change their minds?

Your claims that we could have done differently and that there is no randomness simply contradict each other. If we could have done differently in exactly the same situation and state of mind, then there cannot possibly be any reason for the difference, which means it can only be random.

This contradiction stands regardless of any detail of the physical world or any magical realms you care to dream up.

The fact that we are unable to physically detect any other influencing factors does not mean that they do not exist - just that they are beyond the scope of what we can detect through our physical senses and man made equipment.

It really doesn't make the slightest difference if there are "other influencing factors" or not - the above contradiction stands.

However there is overwhelming evidence in mankind's unique creative and imaginative capabilities which appear to indicate the presence of free will.

Baseless assertion. There is no evidence whatsoever for your contradictory notion of "free will" because it makes no sense. It's not even possible to imagine evidence for a contradiction.

The fact that we are able to conceive the concept of free will is in itself an indication that there is evidence of its existence.

Drivel.

To simply claim that it is a logical impossibility is an easy option based upon a our limited knowledge.

It is based on the fact that your claims obviously contradict each other.

And, as I previously pointed out, if you somehow do manage to resolve the contradiction in a logically coherent way then, unless you are claiming omniscience, it could be material anyway.

Your so called "argument" is based on a self-contradictory premiss, that nobody you are arguing with accepts and that you can't justify, and, even if you could resolve the contradiction, the rest of it fails to show your conclusion.

So, once again:

Where is your sound logic?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 12:45:42 PM by Never Talk to Strangers »
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38708 on: February 25, 2020, 01:05:52 PM »


Bullishit. If you seriously think there’s “overwhelming evidence” for that why are you unable to produce even the tiniest scrap of it?


Try googling "free will"
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38709 on: February 25, 2020, 01:16:04 PM »
Blue,

give it up before you become as crazy as he is . From an observers point of view I think you are at risk !!!

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10200
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38710 on: February 25, 2020, 01:18:56 PM »

You call it magic.  I call it the supernatural power of the soul.
But I think we both agree that without it, human free will can only be an illusion, not a reality.

As pointed out numerous times already, there is no evidence for it actually being a reality, and there never will be.  And given that so much of our experience clearly is fabrication of mind, and illusory in a similar sense, there seems little reason to doubt that free will also has an illusory quality to it.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38711 on: February 25, 2020, 01:25:00 PM »
AB,

Quote
Try googling "free will"

Try thinking. Oh, hang on...

I see that, as ever, when your error-riddled efforts are dismantled before your eyes you just avoid dealing with the problem. What would Jesus think of your disgraceful behaviour here do you think?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38712 on: February 25, 2020, 02:11:30 PM »
Try googling "free will"

Try Googling, 'have I, (meaning you Alan), really been indoctrinated'?

Commiserations Alan.

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38713 on: February 25, 2020, 02:16:25 PM »
Blue,

give it up before you become as crazy as he is . From an observers point of view I think you are at risk !!!
The problem, or rather, one of the problems, about this is that AB wil smugly, mind-numbingly stupidly, etc will think he has achieved some sort of victory. Actually, the thought of him ever getting the last word makes me feel quite ill! The mods must be on their guard and make sure that when this thread finally comes to an end, they close it on a clear, intelligent post, not on one of AB's. If I'm dead by then, I hope I shall be able to come back and do a bit of smiting if this fails.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38714 on: February 25, 2020, 02:21:12 PM »
Hi Walter,

Quote
Blue,

give it up before you become as crazy as he is . From an observers point of view I think you are at risk !!!

Do you know, I think you might be right about that!

I find it hard to tell whether he's just a troll determined to behave disgracefully but knowing that that's what he's doing, or if he really believes what he says his believes and thinks that the end justifies his means of avoidance, dishonesty, etc. The constant repetition of:

AB: Flat wrong argument

ME: Your argument is flat wrong and here's why

AB: Move on quickly to something else

Wait for a bit, then...

AB: Repeat flat wrong argument or try different flat wrong argument

Seems unlikely win any converts, so why does he bother with it I wonder?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 02:30:57 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38715 on: February 25, 2020, 04:23:58 PM »
Hi Walter,

Do you know, I think you might be right about that!

I find it hard to tell whether he's just a troll determined to behave disgracefully but knowing that that's what he's doing, or if he really believes what he says his believes and thinks that the end justifies his means of avoidance, dishonesty, etc. The constant repetition of:

AB: Flat wrong argument

ME: Your argument is flat wrong and here's why

AB: Move on quickly to something else

Wait for a bit, then...

AB: Repeat flat wrong argument or try different flat wrong argument

Seems unlikely win any converts, so why does he bother with it I wonder?

Blue ,

I sussed him out long ago . He's  the best troll I've seen .

One day there will be a big reveal. Meantime , you're just driving yourself mad  :-[

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38716 on: February 25, 2020, 04:26:42 PM »
The problem, or rather, one of the problems, about this is that AB wil smugly, mind-numbingly stupidly, etc will think he has achieved some sort of victory. Actually, the thought of him ever getting the last word makes me feel quite ill! The mods must be on their guard and make sure that when this thread finally comes to an end, they close it on a clear, intelligent post, not on one of AB's. If I'm dead by then, I hope I shall be able to come back and do a bit of smiting if this fails.
SD

if everyone ignores him for a bit , lets see what he does ????

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7958
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38717 on: February 25, 2020, 04:38:52 PM »
I wish AB would post on some of the secular threads it would be interesting to know his take on some of those topics.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38718 on: February 25, 2020, 04:46:28 PM »
Blue ,

I sussed him out long ago . He's  the best troll I've seen .

One day there will be a big reveal. Meantime , you're just driving yourself mad  :-[
I doubt that very much. I think he is so thoroughly indoctrinated, like a street preacher immune to any reason, that there is not even a small space for any revelation.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38719 on: February 25, 2020, 04:48:34 PM »
SD

if everyone ignores him for a bit , lets see what he does ????
No, I think that is very unlikely to work - he'll just think he has scored a victory.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14481
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38720 on: February 25, 2020, 04:48:59 PM »
But if the only evidence you allow to be considered is based upon what we consciously perceive from material behaviour and the concept of time related cause and effect, you will inevitably come to the conclusion that a choice must be a consequence of reactions to past events.

And if you want something else to be considered you need to justify why; we justify accepting evidence of the physical because it has been shown to be consistently replicable, and because it can be investigated to confirm or refute hypotheses; we justify logic because it proceeds inevitably and inescapably from premise to conclusion.  If you want to posit another stream of evidence or proof that's fine, but without some justification for accepting it its just postulation.

Quote
The fact that we are unable to physically detect any other influencing factors does not mean that they do not exist - just that they are beyond the scope of what we can detect through our physical senses and man made equipment.

It could suggest either of those.  You are right that absence of evidence is not, of itself, evidence of absence, but the absence not just of evidence but of unexplained phenomena which need a source leads to the conclusion that it may well just not exist. It isn't just that we can't detect something non-physical in the system, it's that we can't detect any phenomena which can't be explained - there is no evidence of something 'else' providing inputs to the system which would require that non-physical input.

Quote
However there is overwhelming evidence in mankind's unique creative and imaginative capabilities which appear to indicate the presence of free will.

I disagree. In the mind-boggling complexity of the human mind's algorithmic development - both individual and evolutionarily - I can't imagine the hubris needed to suggest that isn't capable of any piece of imagination or creativity.  The complexity of the interconnections and feedback mechanisms and hormonal variations and multi-faceted influences of the neural network in our brain is almost infinitely more complicated than any individual piece of creativity would require.

Quote
The fact that we are able to conceive the concept of free will is in itself an indication that there is evidence of its existence.

No, it's evidence that humanity can abstract from concrete examples, it's a suggestion that free will might be a thing until you actually investigate the concept and it's logically self-contradictory and the evidence doesn't support the idea.

Quote
To simply claim that it is a logical impossibility is an easy option based upon a our limited knowledge.  The reality may be far, far different.

The point of logic is that it doesn't require specific knowledge it follows deductively.  It's not a constraint of  the physical world that makes it illogical, it's the conflicting requirements of something being both will and free - the two cannot co-exist.  Free is random, otherwise the constraints placed upon it make it not free, and as soon as it's random it's no longer will.  Unless you can somehow conceive of a third option between random and determined by prior events?  If you can, you get to show the flaw in the logic, but if you can't then that's where you argument falls over.  You can claim that there might be a third path, but we don't need to know what it is, we need to know how it works logically to be both non-random and non-determined.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38721 on: February 25, 2020, 05:46:43 PM »
Nicolas Marks, (Sparky).

Alan Burns.

Hope.

Spud.   

There is at least another one my memory slips me.

ippy

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38722 on: February 25, 2020, 05:49:12 PM »
No, I think that is very unlikely to work - he'll just think he has scored a victory.
SD

them street preachers can get a bit manic ;)

Victory?   let's wait and see 8)

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38723 on: February 25, 2020, 06:15:27 PM »
The problem, or rather, one of the problems, about this is that AB wil smugly, mind-numbingly stupidly, etc will think he has achieved some sort of victory. Actually, the thought of him ever getting the last word makes me feel quite ill! The mods must be on their guard and make sure that when this thread finally comes to an end, they close it on a clear, intelligent post, not on one of AB's. If I'm dead by then, I hope I shall be able to come back and do a bit of smiting if this fails.
I sincerely share that hope, Susan    :)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7958
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #38724 on: February 25, 2020, 06:42:14 PM »
I think closing this thread would be an excellent idea. It contains thousands of posts making the same points over and over again ad infinitum, but god is still missing.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."